Chat Board Archives: July, 1999




This page contains all the messages put onto the BSN Stereo Chat Board during July, 1999. They are in chronological order from first to last. To search for specific topics, use the "find" utility on your browser. For a search of the complete archives, please go to the Stereo Chat Board Archives Main Page.




Name: Mike
From: Warner Robins Ga
Time: 1999-07-01 16:33:36
Comments: Does anyone know where I can find the original version of "We gotta get out of this place" and not the alternate take that seems to be on all the Animals greatest hits cd's

Name: Paul Allen
From: TN.
Time: 1999-07-01 17:39:37
Comments: To Diane: I recently picked up a CD on Collectables label........"Don Shirley...Golden Classics" (COL-5748). It has "Drown in my own tears" in true Stereo, plus every other song he probably recorded! 18 cuts in all. Mostly Stereo.....all original Cadence versions. Hope this helps!

Name: David Clark
From: Ottawa
Time: 1999-07-03 09:04:54
Comments: to Mike, re: We Gotta Get Outta This Place. It's true, the version we are more familiar with has not yet been on CD (to my knowledge). According to a fairly well-known Music database, the version that keeps appearing is the U.K. single (can't confirm this though). I only wish we'd get the correct (U.S. single?) version on CD too!

Name: Andrew
From: NJ
Time: 1999-07-03 09:47:06
Comments: To Mike: Supposedly, the U.S. single was an alternate take, sent to M.G.M. by mistake by The Animal's label in England (E.M.I.), and I've read that this "master" does not exist in the Abbey Road vault.

Name: Greg
From: Calabasas, CA.
Time: 1999-07-03 14:11:12
Comments: To Mike, The original U.S. single version of the Animals WE'VE GOTTA GET OUT OF THIS PLACE is on a CD called TAKE 2Original & Alternate Versions of 26 Pop & Soul Classics.They have used what is called a publishers demo as their source, and the sound on this track is good.I found this CD from an ad in ICE.

Name: Paul L. DePietro III
From: Connecticut
Time: 1999-07-04 08:50:31
Comments: Hi All: I hope someone can help me. I am looking for a rare recording from what I understand. What I am looking for is "Presenting Dion and the Belmonts". I have only found one copy of it on E-bay. I don't want to wait 10 days until the bidding is over for it. If anyone out there could tell me where I may be able to purchase a copy it would be most appreciated. It is going to be a belated Father's Day gift. I told him I would find it and somehow, someway, I will. Thanks again, Paul DePietro

Name: Alex Shkoditzh
From: Long Island, NY
Time: 1999-07-04 10:05:25
Comments: With all the knowledge I have gained from this board, you would think that I had enough sense to avoid Rhino products. Unfortunately, I was enticed by the "History of British Rock" series Volumes 8 and 9, in order to add several select tracks to my collection. After listening to these, I have some universal advice for those who compile "oldies" collections. (1) The compiler (is that a word?) must exercise caution in the use of "single edits". While these may be desirable in certain cases (Crimson and Clover comes to mind), respect the fact that even "oldies" radio (i.e.: the general public) ignores certain others (Cream's "Sunshine of Your Love" and "White Room", Procul Harum's "A Whiter Shade of Pale"). Discs should indicate track length by listing them on the cover. (2) The stereo issue: these volumes exhibit the strangest choices. Donovan's "Atlantis" is (S) while "Hurdy Gurdy Man" is (M). Two of three classic Bee Gees tracks are (M). "Nights in White Satin" by the Moodies is (M) when the track was recorded at sessions initially designed for a stereo demonstration record! (3) When using disc dubs, (represented here by Deep Purple's "Hush") get a clean disc! Use a high end cartridge! Although presented in stereo, the balance isn't centered and channel separation is lousy. As a matter of fact, the balance on both these volumes slightly favors the left channel - even on the mono tracks! It has become obvious the Rhino no longer listens to their product, which is strange when even the majors have divisions which are concentrating on releasing improved versions of their back catalog (Sony Mastersound, DCC, etc.). Avoid Rhino products!

Name: dan strode
Time: 1999-07-04 10:19:46
Comments: Now at collectors choice music - http://www.ccmusic.com some people (Mike) have been looking for this one. Lost Hits of the '60s - 40 Solid Gold Hits. If you thought Fred Willard was joking when he mentioned a band called Four Jacks and a Jill in "This Is Spinal Tap," he wasn't. The South African quintet is just one of the groups you'll hear on this collection of rare '60s hits. Alongside gems from such obscure artists as the Cherry People, Cyrkle and the Critters are more familiar cuts from Dusty Springfield, the Lovin' Spoonful and others for a total of 40 songs you thought were gone forever. Even the most comprehensive musical collection has holes in it--fill the ones in yours today

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Time: 1999-07-04 11:26:03
Comments: More good news about buying CDs on the internet. I have just noticed that you can now buy items on the Collector's Choice label from the big sellers like TotalE & CDNow; AND at prices well below what CCM is charging for their own releases on their own site. After learning this, I did some digging into the CCM catalog, and found that the recent releases, e. g. Rusty Draper, aren't available anywhere except CCM. The moral of the story is, if there's something on the CCM label you want, just wait a month or so, and it will show up somewhere else at a much lower price. I'm still looking fo a Sam Cooke The Man & His Music, anybody got one they would like to trade away or sell?

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-04 18:19:21
Comments: Awhile back, someone asked whether "Open Up Your Heart And Let The Sunshine In" by the Cowboy Church Sunday School (Decca) was available on CD. I recently used it in a compilation I produced and mastered for Good Music Co. It should be available from them within the next three weeks. The package is called "I Believe/Songs Of Faith And Inspiration" and it conains 36 songs with the above theme. Most are from the 50's, a sprinkling are from the late 40's and a few are from the 60's and 70's. Ten are stereo, the remainder in mono because none of them were ever recorded multi-track. Here is the content: CD 1- The Man Upstairs-Kay Starr, Smile-Nat King Cole, Angels In The Sky-Crew Cuts, In The Chapel In The Moonlight-Kitty Kallen, He-Al Hibbler, A Wonderful Time Up There-Pat Boone, Whispering Hope-Jo Stafford/Gordon MacRae, Open Up Your Heart (And Let The Sunshine In)-Cowboy Church Sunday School, Scarlet Ribbons- Harry Belafonte, It Is No Secret-Bill Kenny of the Ink Spots, Crying In The Chapel- June Valli, A House With Love In It-Four Lads, You'll Never Walk Alone-Roy Hamilton, The Little White Cloud That Cried-Johnnie Ray, Young At Heart-Bing Crosby/Guy Lombardo, Over The Rainbow-Judy Garland, Count Your Blessings- Eddie Fisher, When You Wish Upon A Star-Joni James. CD2: The Bible Tells Me So-Don Cornell, Suddenly There's A Valley-Gogi Grant, I Believe-Frankie Laine, Heart-Four Aces, The Old Master Painter-Richard Hayes, The End-Earl Grant, Croce De Oro-Patti Page, ALL OF THESE ARE STEREO: Deck Of Cards-Wink Martindale, Village Of St. Bernadette-Andy Williams, May You Always-McGuire Sisters, Climb Every Mountain-Sammy Davis, Jr., The Three Bells-The Browns, What A Wonderful World-Louis Armstrong, What The World Needs Now Is Love-Jackie DeShannon, Bridge Over Troubled Water- Perry Como, The Impossible Dream-Jack Jones, May The Good Lord Bless And Keep You-Kate Smith. Primarily I put this together so that fans of hit records from the 50's could get a whole bunch of "never available" or "hard to find" tracks in one package! Again, it is available from Good Music Co. Their website is www.yestermusic.com

Name: Chris Nagel
Time: 1999-07-05 02:03:18
Comments: Does anyone know if DCC Compact Classics has gone out of business? I was in our local outlet mall's music store and noticed a lot of their product (including gold discs) in the cut-out bins.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-05 11:59:06
Comments: No, the owner ate a bad business deal. He backed a disposable camera venture. When the carera thing went belly up he had to file a chapter 11 to keep from having to liquidate his company. They should be out of hot water in a couple of months. The story is in the latest issue of Stereophille.

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-05 14:55:52
Comments: Sorry, last post regarding the CD "I Believe"/Songs Of Faith And Inspiration should have included one additional song on CD #2 (sorry!!) : He's Got The Whole World In His Hands - Laurie London.

Name: Craig Stotler
From: West Virginia
Time: 1999-07-05 17:56:47
Comments: I'm trying to find the early Hermans Hermits hits in stereo. Anybody know which collection to buy? I went to the Peter Noone website and while he has the hits collections, he doesn't list any info as to mono or stereo. Thank You

Name: Joe Reynolds
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-05 21:32:50
Comments: For Craig Stotler... Best Hermits collection that I know of are the two companion best of sets on British EMI, "Herman's Hermits-Best Of The EMI Years" Vols. 1 and 2. 22 tracks on each CD but very little stereo. As far as I know, most of that stuff was never released in true stereo anywhere. "A Must To Avoid" is in stereo on the first volume, but the mix is bizzare. "Hold On" and "Leaning On A Lamp Post" are also stereo, but that's it for the hits on Vol. 1. Volume 2 has "Don"t Go Out Into The Rain" and "Museum" in stereo as well as a few that were not hits in the US. There's also a 25 track "Very Best Of" on British EMI, but the later hits like "Museum" are missing in favor of tracks like "Here Come The Star" which many American fans have never heard of. Hope this is of some help...

Name: Don Duffey
From: Buffalo
Time: 1999-07-05 22:29:05
Comments: 2 questions..1) does any one remember a group called.."The Yankee Dollar" they had a great tune called "Sanctuary"(that I have in stereo on there LP)I think one of the oldie labels should put this out(Hellooo Sunshine Days Vol.6)..They relesed this tune in 1968,never charted but should have. 2) Whats the difference between "Gray Area" CDs(which are 99% made from vinyl) and selling "used records" in a used record store.neither pays royalties to the artists,or record label?

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-06 01:52:28
Comments: RE: Sam Cooke: The Man & His Music. Guys, there are just too many of you who contacted me with suggestions about how I might go about getting a copy of this OOP CD. Thanks to each of you who made your very gracious offers. I am very pleased by the cordiality of so many of you (Y'all know who you are).

By far, the most generous of visitors, though, lives on the other side of the big pond, and he has provided a copy of the CD to me in exchange for a another, equally difficult-to-find Cooke CD (which, in itself would not have been available to me were it not for the beneficence of yet another regular visitor to this site -- you know who you are, too). The search for the CD is over (thank God). To all of you who contacted me in this regard, I just want to say that you are a fine group of guys. I bow to you humbly. Isn't it grand how kindred spirits always love to pitch in?


Name: Graham
From: CO
Time: 1999-07-06 21:07:13
Comments: Hi. Looking for "The Wedding Song" by Paul Stooky of "Peter Paul And Mary" fame. Anyone know if it is available on CD? Got the record already!

Name: Don Duffey
From: Buffalo
Time: 1999-07-06 22:48:09
Comments: To Graham,The "Wedding Song"(There Is Love)by Paul Stookey is available on a CD called..Giving You The Rest Of My Life...13 contemporary classics for memorable weddings.on Sparrow-SPD 1418. Its stereo..in fact the disc claims to be Dolby Surround..It's usualy in the wedding section of your favorite neighborhood music store....Don

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-09 11:03:23
Comments: Hi All: Since I've seen talk on this chat page on two rather rare songs, I though I might alert you to the fact that BOTH of them are available on a budget release from Charly. I can't recall whether anyon has mentioned this CD before, but some readers might find this interesting. This CD, A COLLECTION OF SOUL SMASHES (Charly CDCD 1026), is very unusual in that the sound on it is very good overall & it has a few items on it that are difficult to find. Since I don't recall whether Mike Callahan has ever reviewed it, I don't know if anyone knows about it. The ones in Stereo are: 1. Brook Benton's "Rainy Nite In Georgia" -- 2. Solomon Burke's "If You Need Me" -- 3. Tyrone Davis' "Turn Back The Hands Of Time" * -- 4. Eddie Floyd's "Knock On Wood" * -- 5. Barbara Lewis' "Hello Stranger" * (very narrow stereo; might be that it's wide mono) -- 6. Carla Thomas' "B-A-B-Y" -- 7. Rufus Thomas' "Walkin' The Dog" -- 8. Al Wilson's "The Snake" -- 9. Brenton Wood's "Gimme A Little Sign" -- 10. Bobby Womack's "That's The Way I Feel About It" (?)

Checking through my database, only the 3 titles followed by an asterisk are in stereo on other compilations in my collection. The Womack song is unknown to me. This is not to say that some of these titles aren't available in stereo elsewhere. Of course the two I've read about from time to time on BSN are "B-A-B-Y" and "The Snake." Apparently the latter is rarely put on collections, and some claim that the original tapes for "B-A-B-Y" may be lost. My only comparison for the Carla Thomas song that I have appears on a Compton's NewMedia/Rhino computer interactive CD-ROM called "Soul Expedition." I bought this at Babbage's in the Mall about 4 years ago. On the Charly CD "B-A-B-Y" is as good as I have ever heard it. Dynamic Range on it is actually very astounding, with sharp percussives and reasonably deep bass. Since most BSN followers use the term "hissy" to describe many songs, I can say here that this one is not "hissy." Nor are most of the songs on the CD. For me, the other really great track is the Brenton Wood, which is in clean, very wide stereo. I have never heard this one sound this good before either. The only one that I find objectionable is "Soul Man." I found this one in the used CD bins at Wherehouse, but subsequently found that it is still listed at the CDWorld site. In sum, the budget price for this 16 track CD is money well spent, in my opinion.


Name: RON FISCH
From: the land of Marky Mac and the Cardinals
Time: 1999-07-09 16:36:35
Comments: To Steve Baird: Thanks for explaining "wide mono" to me. But could you tell us which recordings on which CD's have the best wide mono sound quality? Some of the Sony Legacy, Varese, Polygram, and even rhino (sshh, don't wanna start nuttin'!) CD's should have have a few tracks like that. Getting back to wide STEREO, does anyone have any of Dick Bartley's American Gold radio show CD's that contain any otherwise unreleased true stereo mixes such as "And Then He Then He Kissed Me" by the Crystals, or any Beach boys remixes like "I Get Ariound". And do any of the "extra gold " tracks (the bonus tracks on disk 4) conatin any rare stereo remixes? Thanks for any help out there..

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-09 17:56:00
Comments: To Steve Baird: Bobby Womack's "That's The Way I Feel About 'Cha" was a #1 Soul Billboard chart hit in 1973. It's stereo. Not a sterling recording. I have several copies of this on various Greatest Hits and compilations all with about the same quality. It was originally released on United Artists, now part of Capitol.

Name: Boppin' Brian
From: Sunny So. Cal.
Time: 1999-07-09 18:46:12
Comments: "WIDE MONO" ! ? ! ? ! ? Is that like an honest politician…. or a hot water heater…or a faultless reissue cd ????!!!!

Regarding the premature reports of the demise of DCC, it brought to mind concern for the health & welfare of one of the early leaders in super sounding CD reissues, RELIC. What had me worried was the fact that oodles of their product is turning up as "cutouts". Anyone interested in hearing otherwise unavailable stuff like Don Gardner & Dee Dee Ford's "I Need Your Lovin'" (unedited "jam" session version from which 45 hit was excised), the original unedited "Don't Ask Me to be Lonely" by The Dubs, the cleanest ever "Stay", "Get A Job", "In the Still of the Night", plus tons of rare stereo better act fast or else be prepared to pay "collector's" prices. Some Relic CDs beat the sound of similar issues on Ace (UK), Rhino, etc. and all beat the britches off Collectables "rip-off" knock-offs. Bottom line, I got a line on over 100 titles that i think I can get for as low as $10 each. So, if you're interested, get in touch with me quick, before it's too late !!!!!

News bit recently said Ron Furmanek did fully remastered STEREO soundtrack for coming fall Miramax cinematic re-issue of A Hard Day's Night. CD issue not likely, I'd guess.

Who's got a lead on a comprehensive listing of where's what & what's what for CD STEREO ROLLING STONES? Knowing that they did Chess & Hollywood & other sessions in stereo isn't gonna tell us where to get, say, "It's All Over Now" in STEREO on CD. ….which by the way sounds great in stereo on an 80's Euro.-comp. LP I have (that most certainly did not follow "RIAA guidelines"/"specs" - - WILD & WOOLY WICKED bass thumpin' sound !!!!)

"Just Because" Dave Clark asked, Lloyd Price's re-recording first cropped up on his first ABC LP…("Exciting.." .??!). Mine's the MCA Germany cd r.i.. Good sound (tapes). "J.B." re-do also landed on numerous re-packages thereafter. U.S. MCA 18 - cut best of has KRC original in mono.

"True Love" stereo versions I have are all film versions. I would like to have the "hit'/record (Decca ?) version in stereo… is it out there ???

Herb Alpert's "Zorba the Greek" is long stereo version on o.o.p. "Jukebox Hits.." Cd series …not at home right now to check vol. #. Have access to 20 or so volumes of this series too, DIRT CHEAP !!! Most grade a "B" or so in BSN newsletter. Lots of rare stereo & low - charters.

Is "She's About a Mover" on Ace "Chartbusters Vol. 1" any improvement over Rhino issues ??? ("Nuggets" box -mono, of course- & "Texas music…" compilations…). Really disappointing to see Ace going the "middle road" with more homogenized selections on "Chartbusters..", where they could have delved so much deeper….. Their "Golden Age…" R & R series seems to be into "safe" territory too lately. Oh well, they still have the super-duper rip-roarin' "Rockin' from Coast to Coast" that kicks the %&*^@(*! outta recent Rhino 4 CD '50s box re-hash.

THAT"S ALL FOLKS !!!!


Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-09 23:51:07
Comments: Brian, re: For info on stereo Stones tracks, check out my website (click on the link above). I've got a listing of most/all of the early tracks in stereo, where to find them, notes, times, etc... It's not 100% complete, but it's more than I've been able to find elsewhere on the net... BTW, It's All Over Now is in stereo on "More Hot Rocks 1" - London release.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-10 09:01:04
Comments: RE Wherehouse music's service, I received this e-mail last night:

I appologize for the delayed response to your request. We are hoping to RE launch our "Lost & Found" by the end of next week and we'll begin taking new out-of-print title requests. Please check back to catch our all new "Lost & Found" department and you should resubmit your order on the site. Thank you again for your patience.

---Michael Miller, WHEREHOUSEMUSIC.COM, Manager Internet Customer Service


Name: sgbaird@iamerica.net
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-10 11:45:30
Comments: It appears that several readers didn't understand what I meant by "wide mono."

On a really good recording (even if it's mono) there is a record of spatiality imprinted in the master tape -- distances between individuals, for example. There is a sense of real music in real time with such recordings, and clearly, many (most) mono recordings do NOT have this quality. The best known examples of what I call wide mono can be heard on many of Buddy Holly's records (but not CDs). The best example of Wide Mono that I could illustrate on CD would be on the original Mercury 45's on CD, Volume 1 wherein the distances between the percussion instruments, the back-up vocalists and the lead singer are readily perceived (on a good sound system) on Little Darlin'. Although mono, there is a well-recognized sense of depth and staging on the recording -- if you have an audio system that can recreate what's really there. You certainly cannot hear this phenomenon on headphones.

If anyone ever makes it to Baton Rouge, I would love to have you come by for a demonstration of SEVERAL recordings with "wide mono" sound.


Name: Roger Round
From: Vancouver, Canada
Time: 1999-07-10 14:07:12
Comments: Does any body know where I could find "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" in stereo other than on the anthology cd release? I am also interested in "Pictures of Matchstick Men" by Status Quo in stereo? I have read this board for some time since I stumbled across it a few months ago. It's has to be the most comprehensive and informative that I have found on the 'net. It has helped me a lot tracking down Stereo cuts.I even read all of the Archives. Thanx to everybody who writes in and shares this info.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-10 16:58:07
Comments: To Roger Round: You might try "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" in stereo on remastered "The Big Chill" soundtrack on Motown. It was rechanneled on the original release. I'm not even sure it was ever mixed to stereo. Comments anyone?

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-10 19:26:11
Comments: BTW, everybody, I just bought Huey Lewis & The News' "Sports" and Billy Idol's "Rebel Yell" CD remasters on Capitol's Expanded Series. They really do have audiophille quality! And these albums finally have some BASS! They sound like mixdown tapes. Both CD's come with bonus tracks cosisting of outtakes and alternate versions. They give you an insight into the recording process and the developmental stages of some of these classic tracks. Just thought you'd like to know. Has anyone heard the new Grand Funk Railroad 3-CD set yet?

Name: Dave Daugherty
From: Dublin, Ohio
Time: 1999-07-11 09:02:34
Comments: To Roger Round: To my knowledge, "A Whiter Shade Of Pale" has never been mixed to stereo. An extensive vault search was done in preparation of the Procol Harum Box Set and they were able to come up with a stereo alternate take (same track, different vocal take), but they were unable to find a complete stereo mixdown of the hit as we know it. Several synch-ups have been done to varying degrees of success that involve the mono single on one channel and a vocal-less track on the other, but I don't believe there has been any commercial release of those. I remember reading a review somewhere (can't recall just where as of now) about the newly remastered "Big Chill" soundtrack but it mentioned that "Whiter Shade Of Pale" was still the usual re-channeled version. "Pictures Of Matchstick Men" is available in stereo on several releases, but be aware that all existing stereo mixes that I'm aware of are missing a "wah-wah" guitar overdub.

Name: Frank Wright
Website: vidman homepage
From: KC, MO
Time: 1999-07-11 12:35:34
Comments: Troy Shondell's new CD, ROCK AND ROLL REBEL is reviewed in the current BSN newsletter #51. I ordered this CD and am very impressed. Some may dismiss Troy Shondell as a "one hit wonder", but not too many are aware that he began recording rockabilly records as GARY SHELTON for Mercury in 1957, and has never stopped performing and recording great music to this day. This CD contains a nice sampling of Shondell's work from the 50's, 60's and 70's. You gotta give this guy credit for hanging in there and adapting to current music styles. I had to work to find this CD. I started at the Troy Shondell web page in the ROCKABILLY HALL OF FAME site http://www.rockabillyhall.com/TroyShondell.html This CD is pictured there, but to order it, I had to contact Troy at his Email address: Shondell@bellsouth.net I sent an Email, and to my surprise, Troy answered personally. He enjoys hearing from his fans, and is very nice. I exchanged several messages with him. He confirmed my theory that PHIL SPECTOR not only produced his Liberty single "NA-NE-NO", but he also produced the similar sounding song "THE GLIDER" which appeared on his Everest LP, The Many Sides of Troy Shondell. Both Spector tracks are electronic on the original stereo LP. To order the ROCK AND ROLL REBEL CD direct from Troy's company, send $20 (includes s&H) to: AVM Starmaker, PO Box 121586, Nashville TN 37212. Another CD containing 24 of Troy's pre-This Time early Gary Shelton recordings is available on a new Bear Family CD "KISSIN' AT THE DRIVE-IN", which is available wherever you get your Bear Family. Two tracks on this CD are stereo. They were issued in 1959 on Alpine #AE56.

Name: Michael Raphone
Time: 1999-07-11 13:35:58
Comments: Just listened to a really cool CD...it's called "Forever Yours" by Marvin Gaye. Available only in DTS-encoded surround sound, this CD features 11 new mixes from the original multi-track tapes. None of the usual EQ distortion of the original Motown mixes is evident (You may have to get used to the uncharactisticly clean sound) and the selections are an interesting blend from his Motown hits. Check out "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" w/Tammi Terrel, among the 4 hit duets. It's interesting to hear Marvin's vocals separately; at one point in "Mountain", it sounds like he forgot the lyrics. You'll need a DVD surround system that supports DTS; you'll only get loud static if you try to play the disc on anything else. Some of the other DTS encoded discs available are made from 70's quad- mix tapes. For more info visit www.dtsonline.com.

Name: Joe Reynolds
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-11 17:13:45
Comments: The following might be of interest to some of the frequent BSN visitors. Last week I e-mailed Peter Noone inquiring about availability of some old Hermits material. The e-mail was as follows: Question: Your 60's stuff is very hard to come by in the US. Does ABKCO own the rights to all the MGM material?? Allen Klein is a moron. I had all three of your "Best Of" albums when I was a kid but they have never been issued on CD in America. I have the 2 British "Best Of The EMI Years" CD's but they are missing a lot of my favorites like "I Gotta Dream On", "Mum And Dad", "My Reservation's Been Confirmed", "Mr.Moonshine Man" and others. Is there a collection available anywhere that has these songs included? If you can't help me Peter, nobody can..talk about going straight to the source!!Thanks in advance for any assistance. Your records still sound GREAT. Hermits Rule!!!! Here is the reply that I received today...Subj: Re: ASK PETER Date:7/11/99 10:02:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time From:NO.ONE@prodigy.net (PETER B NOONE) Reply-to:NO.ONE@prodigy.net (PETER B NOONE) To:uncljoerey@aol.com hi joe, yes klein is a moron. I am slowly getting the whole collection released on cd but they are all imports. just found some new stuff in japan and china which will be available soon at www.peternoone.com thank you for your interest Peter Noone hello did you subscribe to PNN the peter noone network? you can subscribe by sending an email to noone-announce@lists.deco.net with the subject subscribe, or by going to http://www.peternoone.com and subscribing there- PETER NOONE "The artist formerly known as Herman" email: peter@peternoone.com http://www.peternoone.com -----Original Message----- From: uncljoerey@aol.com To: peter@peternoone.com Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 12:19 PM Subject: ASK PETER Herman's Hermits has always been a favorite of mine, and I got a real kick out of receiving a personal response. Hope that some of you fellow BSN readers enjoyed it as well...

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-11 18:14:02
Comments: Well, I finally picked up Atlantic Soul Classics - I just happened to see it at Best Buy. At any rate, I'd like to put a question to rest. Sam & Dave - Soul Man: the stereo version (found on this CD) *IS* the same take as the mono mix. I played them side by side, and the *ONLY* difference is at 1:44 - the stereo mix has an extra vocal line that was mixed out of the mono mix. Other than that, identical. Also, there has been some mention as to why In The Midnight Hour hasn't show up in stereo. Some claim that Stax didn't have stereo facilities at the time - well, I've Been Loving You Too Long is in stereo, and it was recorded at Stax a few weeks earlier. So there must be another reason...

Name: beetlefan
From: Somewhere In Arizona
Time: 1999-07-11 21:08:41
Comments: O.K., according to Jerry Wexler, Stax didn't have stereo until around 1966, when Tom Dowd, Atlantic's chief engineer went down to Memphis to install a stereo console and tape machine. I too, have the "Atlantic Soul Classics" CD. I purchaced it in 1986, one of the first CD's I bought. And I really hate to say you're wrong, but, you're worng about "Soul Man". One comparison to the stereo and mono will reveal that they are different takes! Listen to the instrumentation! The opening drums start at letter A on the stereo and the mono has a fill before letter A. When he sings "Comin' to you..." on the mono, he does it with the emphasis on "you", and on the stereo the emphasis is clearly on the word "to". The lead guitar is played differently. "I've Been Loving You Too Long" is also a different recording. If i'm not mistaken, Carla Thomas's "Carla" album, featuring "B-A-B-Y", was the first one to recorded in stereo in early 1966.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-11 21:19:41
Comments: Beetlefan: Well, I hate to say you are wrong, but you are. I put the mono and stereo mixes on my computer, synched them up, one in the left channel and one in the right, and the *only* difference was at 1:44, with the extra line. Everything else is *exactly* the same - vocal, drums, everything. I suggest you do this as well - you'll see that indeed they are the same take. There's no way around it. Also, as far as Stax stereo goes, they must have had it in 1965, as I've Been Loving You Too Long is certainly in true (wide at that) stereo. It was recorded April 19, 1965.

Name: Mike Arcidiacono
Time: 1999-07-11 21:32:32
Comments: Re: Hermans Hermits I know all my BSN buddies will be interested in this: I sent Peter noone an Email regarding how the early HH hits were recorded. I had heard that they were recorded in mono. Here is Peters response: "We recorded live and mixed to mono because we liked that sound for HH" There are no stereo versions in existence." Well, that about closes the chapter on ever hearing HH in stereo. Still, after 35 years people do forget things. Maybe someday we will find a few two tracks of the early hits, but for now, get the EMI imports, they sound great. Mikey

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-11 21:35:43
Comments: One correction - there is indeed an added fill in the mono mix of Soul Man at the start of the song. However, everything else - guitar licks, vocal screams, drum rolls, horn parts, etc is identical. So either a) the drum roll was mixed out of the stereo mix, or b) the mono mix has the drum roll overdubbed. Since it's so short, I'd bet that the stereo mix simply has it mixed out for some reason. At any rate, it *IS* the same take...

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-11 21:54:47
Comments: Ok, I think I've got it. The vocal/horn/tambourine track is an overdub on the mono mix of Soul Man up to (but not including) "on a dusty road". It sounds like they didn't like the tambourine track on the original (found on the stereo mix) and re-did it. "Coming to you" is indeed different (you/ya), and the tambourine is hit in different places. However, from "on a dusty road" and on, everything is the same (excluding the bit at 1:44 they forgot to mix out)... Also, I believe only the horn/vocal/tambourine track is different, as the drums and guitar sound identical. Phew!

Name: Tom Daly
Website: Skyline Digital Audio Restoration Service
From: Metro Boston
Time: 1999-07-11 21:57:33
Comments: Regarding "I've Been Loving You Too Long" - The mono and stereo of the original Stax-Volt LPs are two completely different recordings. Until that LP, all Stax & Volt albums were cut in mono in Memphis at Stax. Atlantic wanted a stereo master for the album after it was already cut in mono at Stax, so the entire LP was rerecorded in Muscle Shoals, Alabama in stereo. All stereo issues of the hit are from the Muscle Shoals session. The 45 is from the Memphis session. I hope this clears up any questions about this track. B-A-B-Y was also cut in Muscle Shoals, however "Gee Whiz" was cut in Memphis.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-13 11:40:37
Comments: When A Man Loves A Woman - anyone know the story on this? It was (unless these notes are wrong) recorded in February 1966 at Muscle Shoals, which certainly had a stereo machine by then. All copies I've heard of the song are rechanneled. Does anyone have an original stereo LP or one of the many CD reissues of it? Most of the Percy Sledge CDs listed on CDNow! are listed as being 'stereo', but of course that doesn't mean much...

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-13 11:43:16
Comments: When A Man Loves A Woman - anyone know the story on this? It was (unless these notes are wrong) recorded in February 1966 at Muscle Shoals, which certainly had a stereo machine by then. All copies I've heard of the song are rechanneled. Does anyone have an original stereo LP or one of the many CD reissues of it? Most of the Percy Sledge CDs listed on CDNow! are listed as being 'stereo', but of course that doesn't mean much...

Name: Mike Arcidiacono
Time: 1999-07-13 13:12:38
Comments: Re: When A Man Loves A Woman Luke, this song has never been in stereo. It was done right before the studio was sold to the musicians who made up the Muscle Shoals Band...they bought the studio and put in an 8 track machine. The studio had an Ampex 4 track machine at the time WAMLAW was recorded, so its very possible that there is a multi somewhere. I would bet that they only had an Ampex MONO mixdown machine at that time , and thats why we've only seen the mono mix. It was a small studio, and alot of the smaller places didnt mix into stereo until the late '60s . I also read in a book on drummers (they did a feature on the Muscle Shoals guys) that the horns were overdubbed, so that certainly makes sense. I think the problem is that nobody knows where the multitrack is, and thats why we've never heard it in stereo. It would be nice, to have the horns and the band left and right with the vocal in the center. Maybe someday!! Hope this helps Mikey

Name: Mike Arcidiacono
Time: 1999-07-13 13:47:47
Comments: Hey Guys, sorry about the triple post of WAMLAW...the system screwed up. Now, can anybody tell me where I can find the best STEREO version of The Miracles 1961 hit "Whats So Good About Goodbye"?? Thanks!!

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-13 20:45:20
Comments: While listening to Soul Man on Atlantic Soul Classics, I started to wonder about the stereo and mono versions of What'd I Say. I compared the stereo version on ASC to the mono version on an original What'd I Say LP. Tom Dowd did a lot of editing! The mono and stereo versions play identically for the first two rounds, then there's an edit in the mono - a round or two is edited out.I think they then play identically for another round or two, then another edit in the mono - some sections in the mono are in a different order than the stereo (which I'm guessing is just what was on the master). Then we come to the break. The 'party chatter' is different from the mono and stereo versions - I guess it was edited in later. However, once Ray starts up again, the mono and stereo play the same for the rest of the song. So, they are indeed from the same take, just edited differently and with a different break...

Name: Joel Goldenberg
From: Montreal
Time: 1999-07-13 22:36:11
Comments: Hi, long time no write! Got back from England a couple of weeks ago and bought several interesting releases. The new Cher early years greatest hits has Dream Baby in binaural, which seems to be otherwise hard to find on CD. A new 2-CD Small Faces Immediate anthology on Sequel is the definitive collection of their later years. Tin Soldier is in stereo, with count-off. It's mono on many other releases, including an excellent "Sound and Light" (Charly) 16-track greatest hits collection, also with great sound. The Universal, from '68, is straight mono (not E, with S overdubs) and has the long field recording ambient noise intro. Unfortunately, Every Little Bit Hurts is still mono. An EMI Music for Pleasure various artists collection for 1970 claims that Canned Heat's Let's Work Together is stereo, but it's the usual E version. The collection came out before the 2-CD set with the first-time stereo version, so I didn't have high hopes. The same volume has Lola, also supposedly in stereo. However, this is the "cherry cola" version, usually (only?) in mono, and this one is mono. EMI UK has made many mistakes like this over the years. By the way, what's the stereo line-up on the remastered Donovan greatest hits? One more thing - I saw some Chess CDs in England claiming to be 32!!!-bit mastered. If that's true, they must sound great, and is certainly higher than the 24-bit we're hearing about. Any info on this? The CDs are from '97.

Name: Fred Lehmann
Website: Dinosaurs of Electronics
From: Sioux Falls, SD
Time: 1999-07-14 02:12:26
Comments: I am looking for "This Wheel's on Fire" by Brian Auger and Trinity. It was a hit in the U.K. in June 1967 but only got to 101 in the U.S. The song was written by Rick Danko and Bob Dylan, and is the best version of the song. I have all the other versions by other artists. I am looking for a copy of this song either mono, or stereo. Thank you

Name: Larry Davis
From: Longview WA
Time: 1999-07-14 20:50:39
Comments: To Luke: I've listened to both the mono and stereo version of Ray Charles' "What'd I Say" on Rhino's 50th Anniversary series. I have not used a computer to try to synch everything up. My feelings (and most of the other opinions I've read) is that they are two different takes and not simply differences in editing. The "party talk" is different, as you acknowledged. Why would Ray do the "wait a minute, wait a minute, hold it" routine twice, two different ways in one performance? It doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that they would do such convoluted editing as you described when taking (supposedly) the stereo tapes and making a mono version? The final performances are nearly the same in length. After almost 45 years, I suppose we'll never be able to "prove" anything about that recording, but I'm wondering if there is a body of other artists' work recorded for Atlantic around the same time that is known to exist in stereo? Such as Ruth Brown's "Jack O'Diamonds", the Drifters' "There Goes My Baby", Clyde McPhatter's "Since You've Been Gone", or Lavern Baker's "I Waited Too Long". Those singles all entered Billboard's chart within a month or so of "What'd I Say". Not that it would prove anything for sure, but it might shed some more light on the probability of whether or not the '59 single version of "What'd I Say" was recorded in stereo.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-14 23:23:54
Comments: Larry: As I said before, I played the mono and stereo versions side by side, and there's no question - they are both sourced from the same take. The stuff matches note for note. The mono just has certain things edited out and in a different order. As for the middle, I'd guess it was an edit piece in the mono that wasn't around (or was simply overlooked) when the stereo was mixed. Atlantic recorded in stereo in 1958 (or earlier) and was one of the first with an 8 track machine (possibly 1958 as well), so even if the two versions weren't the same, it still probably would have been recorded in stereo. But we know it was anyway, so...!

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-14 23:39:13
Comments: Larry, re: I forgot to mention something - Tom Dowd (Atlantic engineer, later producer) recalled in (I believe) one of the Ray Charles box sets that What'd I Say was heavily edited/chopped up/etc... Why? To make a better single. The original performance (heard on the stereo mix) has a few more instrumental breaks than the mono, which would have made the song less commercial. Also, I think the stereo came out a few years after the mono (sorry, I don't have a date), and I'd bet somebody just pulled the master out of the vault and mixed it to stereo, not realizing (or caring) the original had edits in it. Kinda like how the stereo mix of From Me To You is simply a copy of the master tape, which is missing a harmonica edit piece in the intro... At any rate, I *just* did another listen, and there's no question - there are several sections that flow by w/o any edits on the mono, and they are identical on the stereo - drum beats, vocals, piano...

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-15 03:24:46
Comments: You know, a popular practice back then was to run a full track machine and a stereo or three-track machine in tandem. The stereo or three-track would be filed away as a backup and the mono tape would be used for mastering.

Name: Paul Allen
From: NC
Time: 1999-07-15 13:10:35
Comments: I'd like to chime in and put my 2 cents worth in this discussion of "What'd I say". For some strange reason, Atlantic re-recorded some of their hits in Stereo at a later date (seemingly) in order to put them in Stereo on subsequent album releases. Case in point: "What'd I say". Listen to the 1968 album "History of Rhythm and blues" (I forget which volume #). This take and others released in the 60's on albums was the take I mentioned. To my knowledge, it wasn't until 1985, that the original, full length Stereo version, appeared on the Atlantic Soul Classics CD (9-27601-2). The Radio Station I worked at for 10 years had all the Atlantic albums. I'm not an expert, but I had been searching for the original Stereo take of this song up until 1985.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-15 14:08:24
Comments: Paul, re: That's interesting that you mention that. I had assumed that the stereo take found on ASC and the Ray Charles R&B box set was originally released in the early '60s... If ASC was in fact the first release of the stereo mix, I would be very surprised, as it's my understanding that Atlantic's unreleased material (outtakes and session tapes) was destroyed in the vault fire. So either a) the stereo version *was* released previously (anyone want to confirm or deny this?), b) the session tape was not stored in the NJ warehouse, or c) the "Atlantic fire" was not all it was cracked up to be. Relating to that...does anyone have any good information on the fire, ie, press clippings, articles, etc...? Also, I wonder if the Stax, Muscle Shoals and American Studios tapes were stored in the NY warehouse as well. Jerry Wexler said all of the Stax masters were the property of Atlantic (up to 1968 anyway), but I wonder if that included session tapes or simply the finished mono and stereo masters... Ok, who has Tom Dowd's email address?? ;-)

Name: Steve Baird
From: Steamy Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-15 14:27:46
Comments: Hey guys, with all of this talk about "What'd I Say" I thought I might mention that the Atlantic LP that was released in late '59 or early '60 had the song electronically rechanneled on the STEREO version of the LP. Since that's the version I bought back then, and the album hasn't been seen since 1972, I have no way of knowing whether ALL of the songs were E-Red or not. I do recall seeing the statement on the jacket that it was rechanneled though.

With regard to Ray Charles in general, though, I don't recall seeing anything mentioned here about the recent Rhino ULTIMATE HITS CD that was released a short while ago. This one, too, has the stereo version of the song, and it sounds cleaner than the ASC track to these ears, as do most of the songs in the set when compared to those on the DCC 2 volume set issued about ten years ago. I agree with Luke P that the stereo and mono tracks of the song on the five copies of the song I have (2-S, 3-M) all seem to have the same origin.


Name: Joe Barnaby
From: Massachusetts
Time: 1999-07-15 15:35:42
Comments: The notes in the booklet accompanying the BIRTH OF SOUL box set indicate that "What'd I Say" was nearly 10 minutes long as originally recorded. Tom Dowd made several different edits of the master to make the song viable as a 45 release, in 2 parts as it turned out. The original WHAT'D I SAY LP issued by Atlantic in mono and rechanneled stereo had the 5:04 single version. The first issue of the 6:22 version was in mono on the 1961 LP DO THE TWIST WITH RAY CHARLES, which was later reissued in rechanneled stereo as THE GREATEST RAY CHARLES. The first issue of the 6:22 version in true stereo was on the 1964 LP THE GREAT HITS OF RAY CHARLES RECORDED ON 8-TRACK STEREO, a compilation of Charles' later Atlantic singles. That LP master was the source of the 13 stereo tracks on the BIRTH OF SOUL. Before the monomania set in.

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-15 17:20:07
Comments: Regarding Atlantic/Stax/Volt stereo: I understood that only the multitracks were stored in the warehouse that burned. The masters were stored somewhere else. That's why Atlantic claims that there are only original stereo and mono mixes of released material.

Name: Martin G. (Marty) Blaise
Website: The Blaise Page
From: Houston, Texas
Time: 1999-07-15 17:55:57
Comments: Some random thoughts and questions from me as usual. First, I recently listened to an old album I had by the Vanilla Fudge (with You Keep Me Hanging On). I hear songs and segues going from mono to stereo and vice versa. Does this mean the entire session was recorded in stereo? I love the part of "Hanging On" where someone drops something in the background. Maybe the group thought a "mono" version was more psychedelic? Second, I have seen old record albums for the Kasey Kasem American Top 40. The ones I saw were mono. These were radio station copies and not issued to the public. I wonder if any were ever in stereo, and if so, what year did they start showing up in stereo? Can collectors legally collect these type albums? Third, maybe some of our DJs can fill me in. Are most station IDs and jingles now recorded in stereo? Anyone know when the first stereo id/jingle was ever played on a radio station? Do any DJs promote true stereo (such as Little Walter) and what station are they on? Will there ever be any special shows to feature new stereo (I know Dick Bartley tries to play lots of stereo)? Finally, I know this isn't a stereo question, but why do so many radio stations not give their call letters and use slogans only? Has anyone put together a compilation CD of artists who "promoted" radio stations (in stereo and/or mono) such as KRLA, etc? Would that be of interest to stereo collectors? Still working on my want lists of "lower charters" in stereo. Hope everyone is doing well.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-15 18:38:21
Comments: A few notes. Marty: On the Vanilla Fudge website several months ago there was an interview with the band's original producer. The question was asked if YKMHO was recorded in mono. The producer said it was done on 8 track, and that the tape still exists if someone wanted to mix it to stereo. Beetlefan: While it would make sense that the Atlantic/NYC multitracks would have been in the warehouse, I wonder if the stuff recorded down south was stored there or not. Could the Stax multitracks be in some warehouse down south? Dito for the Muscle Shoals tracks...? Joe: Does Tom Dowd actually say 10 minutes? I wonder if he explicity meant 10 minutes, or just that it was too long... At any rate, if anyone's interested (besides myself), I may attempt to recreate the mono edit using the stereo mix (of course the talking will be different). I'd synch the mono and stereo up together, but alas, I don't have the mono version on CD - only LP.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-15 23:24:31
Comments: Marty, I've seen those AT40 lp's at used record stores. I doubt anything's legaly wrong with owning them. After all, once they're broadcast, they're fair game. I used to tape them off the air when I was a teenager in the seventies, so... Also, having some knowledge and experience with radio, I think DJ's just use whatever equipment and methods they can to get their promo's on the air, regardless of mono/stereo issue. It's a production time issue. Half the people who do radio don't even know the difference between stereo and mono.

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-15 23:41:34
Comments: Oh yeah, the reason radio uses slogans is because people remember them easier. Out here, we have "Cool" 92.9, "The Hog", "Mega-Oldies", "The Good Times Oldies Station", "The Mix" FM"...you get the idea. I really can't tell you the call letters of ANY of the stations mentioned above, but I know what they play. The only one I know is the one that goes by it's call letters, KRQ, Tucson. My pet peeve with radio is that they rarely announce the songs and the artists after or before the song. They give you a rundown of the artists to come after the break. They do it because twenty-five years ago stations became automated and they had to have a reason there was no live DJ, so they covered up for it. It was hard to have a talking DJ with prerecorded tapes, so they convinced the moronic public that live, talking DJ's were bad. They also saved money. The era of the obnoxious, yet humorous DJ is pretty much gone. Now you get some twenty-five year-old behind the mike and management that's scared of offending anyone.

Name: Richard Otis
From: Bellingham, Wash
Time: 1999-07-16 14:23:43
Comments: Hi, I recently picked the new Taragon Paul Anka - The Essential RCA Rock and Roll Recordings (1962-1968) which has great sound and (I believe) all stereo. But, I noticed that the recording of Remember Diana is one I DON'T remember. I have another version of the song from a budget Camden RCA lp from the 1970's with another version which was the version I remember from the early 60's. I noticed in the Taragon liner notes that it was recorded at 2 different sessions 9 months apart but if I read the notes correctly this cd incorporates portions of both sessions on this recording - but it sures sounds different. Any thoughts?

Name: Mike Arcidiacono
Time: 1999-07-16 15:00:00
Comments: Re: I Remember Diana Yup, there ARE two versions of this song. The version that was on the Bear Family "Answer song" 2CD comp in stereo is the alternate version. The "hit" version is the version that sounds production-wise more like the original 1957 "Diana". This was the version used for the famous "Scopitone" video. I really dont like the alt version, the hit version is much better. Has the hit version been released in stereo? There is a version on a Pair Cd of Anka stuff, but I dont have that, so I dont know. Maybe the alt version is a re-record to get it in stereo to match his then current releases. Anybody?

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-16 16:17:13
Comments: Oh Luke P., may you curse me with a weeks worth of GPF's. I A/B'd the mono and stereo versions of Sam & Dave's "Soul Man", and other than three spots, they are, indeed the same take. I dug out my copy of Atlantic Soul Classics CD (stereo) and the "Best of Sam and Dave" CD (mono) and put them on two different CD players. I was wrong! I was speaking from errored recall and the effect that the stereo has on my sonic cues. And, probably the reason I prefer most sixties mono over most sixties stereo is because when, on some songs, the instruments are panned hard to one side and vocals are panned hard to the opposite side it sounds so gimmicky and very unnatural. Obviously, a lot of people like that. Next, I wonder if anyone knows the reason the mono version of Sam & Dave's "You Don't Know What You Mean To Me" presented on the "Swaet & Soul" double CD anthology has the intro cut off? The set was remastered by Mr. Bill Inglot. Anyway, I recreated the mono version by grafting on the intro from the stereo mix, reducing it to mono, then adding reverb to make the sonics match. It isn't totally perfect, but if anyone's interested... For fun I also added back the proper ending to Fontella Bass' "Rescue Me". The 45 version is nothing more than the stereo master blended to mono. The latest CD remasters of this song all have the beautiful stereo mix but with a shortened ending, prematurely fading out the bass solo. MCA's Vintage Music Vol 9&10 (out of print, mastered by Steve Hoffman) has the full ending but is a bad tape. Does anyone know about a curious practice of fading down a song, then fading it back up just before the real ending? This happens on the LP version of "The "In" Crowd" by The Ramsay Lewis Trio, "Suspicious Minds" by Elvis Presley, the mono 45 mix of Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On", and Diana Ross' "Have Fun Again", on her "Diana" album. If they were fading out bad spots or using different mixes, why not just edit them?

Name: barry margolis
From: Minneapolis, MN
Time: 1999-07-17 11:04:41
Comments: Re: Atlantic's mono and stereo alternates: It's my understanding that Atlantic has the mono masters and stereo masters - it's the multi's that were destroyed. However, it's always been weird that Atlantic seemed to mix into stereo an alternate take to the mono. Leiber-Stoller did it especially alot. There plenty of Coasters and Drifters tracks that the stereo's are different from the mono's. Nobody has ever really sorted all that out. To my knowledge, nobody has interview Tom Dowd or Leiber-Stoller to get the lowdown. Mike, wouldn't that make a nifty article in an upcoming BSN Newsletter?

Name: Richard Otis
From: Bellingham, Wash
Time: 1999-07-17 12:13:50
Comments: Hi, regarding my earlier posting concerning the new Taragon Paul Anka cd The Essential RCA Rnr Recordings (1962-1968) I mentioned the cd contained a different version of Remember Diana than the "hit" version that I remembered but I didn't mention that the cd also featured the same "hit" version (in stereo) INSIDE THE SAME TRACK BAND (8A for the remake and 8B for the earlier)so you can't simply cue your player to go to the 2nd "hit" version. I missed it initially since I simply listened to the first minute of each band. I wanted to make it clear that both versions are on the cd.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Muggy, Rainy Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-17 15:15:25
Comments: For those of you who didn't buy the PET SOUNDS box to get the album in STEREO, REJOICE!!. My copy of the new mid-priced single CD arrived today, and I'm so glad. It contains both mono and stereo versions of all the songs on the original album, plus a bonus track, *Hang On To Your Ego.* I can't say whether the transfer is exactly like the material in the box, but this one's a winner for sure. THE oldies reissue of 1999 for me; how about doing the same to the other Beach Boys albums, Capitol? Sunflower, Friends and a host of others would really be nice to see in this format.

Name: Dave Daugherty
From: Dublin, Ohio
Time: 1999-07-17 20:22:11
Comments: I have to agree with Steve Baird....the new "Pet Sounds" re-issue is very very good. The stereo mix to me sounds the same as what we heard on the "Pet Sounds" box set which of course, is outstanding. The real benefit to this CD is that Brian's original mono mix is presented without all the usual noise reduction that has dulled the sound on all previous releases. Yeah, it's a bit hissy in places, but it's great to examine just how good Brian's mix was considering the technology of what he had to work with in 1966. It's great to know that the master tapes didn't really sound as bad as the prior releases led us to believe.

Name: Bill Knoble
From: a surprisingly < 100° Dallas
Time: 1999-07-18 04:54:58
Comments: Since a couple of you have brought up the new "Pet Sounds" reissue, this would be an ideal time for me to post a question I've been meaning to for some time now. Has anybody heard (beyond mere speculation) how successful the "Pet Sounds Sessions" boxed set has been? Does any Capitol insider want to 'leak' some info.? I'm only curious because I want more mono Beach Boys' albums to go through the same treatment, legitimately (although I will consider Sea of Tunes if I have to). Of course, a 4-cd set of each album would probably be more than I'd want, but what about a 2-cd set containing (for each song) a: stereo mix, stereo backing track & mono remix (to get better quality since the original mono mixes are already out there). O.K. Capitol --- get to work!

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-18 15:59:19
Comments: Favorite summer blockbuster for readers of the BSN site: The Spy Who Shagged Me? NO! Tarzan? NO! Eyes Wide Shut? NO! It is: FIRE AT THE WAREHOUSE! The true story of the Atlantic Records Warehouse fire in New Jersey many years ago. Find out which true stereo tapes were destroyed... which edits of "What'd I Say" may have been saved... were any unmarked Sam & Dave tracks ever found undamaged... and least importantly, how many people died! One of the most puzzling events of recent history, yet no one really knows the true answers. Were Stax tapes stored there? Were stereo and mono masters stored in a different location (i.e. Tom Moulton's basement?) Did Ray Charles actually have sight before visiting the warehouse that fateful day? (Intense heat from the fire, dummy.) Coming to a theatre near you soon. (And watch for the brief cameo appearance by Luke Pacholski as the eccentric Atlantic engineer Tom Dowd!) Hear Fire Commissioner Jenkins (Nick Nolte) say: HURRY AND GET THOSE STEREO FANATICS OUT OF HERE. THE PLACE IS BURNING FAST. I NEED TO SAVE LIVES, NOT CARLA THOMAS UNDERDUBS!!

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-18 20:17:28
Comments: Don't forget "Produced by Roger Waters" and "Directed by Oliver Stone".:)

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-18 23:08:20
Comments: Marty, re: Sorry, but I have neither Dowd's full beard nor his grey hair...oh well. At any rate I just made an MP3 of What'd I Say - the stereo mix edited to reflect the mono mix. I think I got everything down pat, although the break is still different - I don't have a clean mono version to edit in, and even if I did, I'm not sure how it would sound. At any rate, it's on my website - see the "Music" section. Feel free to send me any questions, comments, etc...

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-19 02:59:48
Comments: Does anyone know if and where I can get the true stereo mix of the Supremes "I Hear A Symphony" on CD? I have it on an old LP, "The Motown Story", with narration over the intro. I tried to splice the intro from a mono source onto the stereo mix on the PC and couldn't quite match the sonics of the stereo. And why is it that only the mono mix ever seems to show up on even stereo CD's? The stereo mix is beautiful.

Name: tom moulton
From: nyc
Time: 1999-07-19 11:26:51
Comments: Hello guys,Time goes bye tapes are lost and then someone comes up with something that is a surprise to everyone.ANGEL BABY and LOUIE LOUIE in stereo???? although it is not what i would call full frequency stereophonic range its enough to turn your head and say..YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING !!!! and where did they find that???...somewhere on long island..will let you know more when i get the tapes...Sorry Marty, don't have a basement but if i did you can rest assured the tapes would be safe...try Memphis that's where they were at one time. Why don't you talk to my friend Jerry Wexler he has told me the story about this fire??? and what tapes were lost..mosty unreleased projects.

Name: Christopher Kissel
From: Long Island, NY
Time: 1999-07-19 18:46:23
Comments: "I Hear A Symphony" can be found in clean stereo on the CD "Diana Ross And The Supremes Greatest Hits - Volume II" (Motown MOTD-5358). The CD appears to have been released quite some time ago and you may only be able to find it in the used bins. Also of note on the same CD is "The Happening" which does not have the dropouts that are present on the "25th Anniversary" 2-CD set.

Name: Dave Breathe
Time: 1999-07-19 18:53:56
Comments: I don't think there is really too much mystery to the Atlantic Stereo '58-'64 thing. From 1958 a lot of the songs were obviously recorded in Stereo & then edited & mixed to Mono, 'cos there was no real demand for Stereo until at least 1964. Only then, they started putting out some Greatest Hits LPs with some real Stereo tracks, such as the Ray Charles one, Best of Chuck Willis, Best of Clyde McPhatter, Drifters Biggest Hits and Coasters Greatest Hits etc. These were obviously assembled up to 6 years after the recording dates, probably by some well-meaning junior engineer, who did not always pick the right (hit) takes to use on the LPs. (This kind of mistake seems to be quite common still!) CCM and Collectables are at least starting to do a good job finding some of these from the Rhino/Atlantic archives to cheer us up on recent CD re-releases.

Name: Alan Ryan
From: Sydne. Australia
Time: 1999-07-20 05:38:59
Comments: Look, I have over 2000 CD's of the 50 and 60 vintages. Approximately 100 of these are Rhino recordoings of which 50% of the Rhino's are in full stereos. I know you are all Rhino bashers so I will leave that there. Here is my bitch. Brian Wilson was deaf in one ear and all his albums, including the best album ever recorded "Pet Sounds", were meant to be heard in mono. Please let them be as they are closest songs to the classical composers that we have today.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-20 10:56:42
Comments: Brian Wilson oversaw the stereo remix of Pet Sounds that Mark Linet did, so if *he* thinks it's ok, why shouldn't we? As for the Atlantic vaults, I'm curious because *all* of the session masters certainly didn't perish - some of the live Cream multitracks have survived, and the entire Layla LP (and outtakes) is intact, so... I believe some jazz outtakes have come out over the years as well, but I don't really know details. I'd bet some session tapes still exist, it's just a matter of what and where - Atlantic's other vaults? Somewhere in Memphis? Miami? And Tom, I wouldn't mind talking to Jerry Wexler - I found his book most interesting;-)

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-20 13:12:20
Comments: To Alan Ryan, THANK YOU!! finally someone agrees with me on the mono issue. I can get almost anything is stereo that was released in stereo but I also like to get things in mono, the way I heard them when I was a kid. But I appreciate both. 80% of my Rhino CD's are in full stereo and I own hundreds of them. I own close to 2000 CD's not including my homemade ones. But my only gripe with Rhino is that half the time they don't use the proper versions of songs. I suspect that the majority of posters/guests here are over fifty, and were exposed to mostly LP's back in the fifties and sixties, therefore having little feeling for the 45's, of which most were mixed mono and played on AM top forty radio.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Africa-Hot Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-20 15:51:09
Comments: TO: Alan Ryan & others interested in the Stereo/Mono issue. Whether or not the recordings were originally issued in mono (and that is the way that most of us heard them originally) is really of very little importance. Those of us who are fortunate enough not to be deaf in one ear hear all sounds (even if it emanates from a single, small point or one speaker, perhaps) with two ears. In fact, all of nature’s creatures with the need to hear (for self-preservation or the source of their next meal) use their two ears to either run away from something that wants to eat it, or run towards it for its reward, thanks to the aural clues it perceives.

With the conveniences that man has been able to develop over the course of history, he has made his life more comfortable and enjoyable. When science finally learned that it could reproduce and transmit sound (and pictures too), it meant that we could experience events and activities from a great distance, and at little cost. One no longer had to go to the Globe Theatre to see a Shakespeare play, or travel to Washington, D C to watch George W. Bush, Jr. be inaugurated on January 20, 2001. We can watch these sorts of things on television, or listen to them over our FM stereo radios. I don’t recall the actual dates on which research into something to replace monaural recordings with stereo ones began in earnest, but I can tell you that the need was recognized early. RCA’s Red Seal Division (their classical music division) was recording Fritz Reiner, Charles Munch, Atrur Rubinstein, Arthur Fiedler and Jascha Heifetz in experimental multi-track recordings (which were later released as STEREO) long before the industry launched its broad-based campaign in 1958. I own a few of these (stereo) records that were recorded as early as 1952 by Lewis Layton et al for RCA. The most famous of these to modern collectors are Reiner’s 1952 “Also Sprach Zarathustra,” and Fiedler’s early (not certain of the year) “Gaite Parisienne.” Far beyond their significance as some of the earliest examples of stereophonic sound is their sound quality, which to this day is considered some of the most natural ever recorded.

Mr. Ryan, the advent of stereophonic sound was one of the most important events for the classical music industry. Of the many wonderful records that were made prior to the advent of stereo, only a few survive today as CD reissues, primarily because of the public’s interest in certain conductors -- Furtwangler, Toscanini, Walter, to name a few. Beyond that, Classical Music collectors far more avid than me most often do not buy a monaural recording of a performance when they know that a stereo one exists. Many of the famous early stereo records from RCA and Mercury are worth hundreds to collectors today, but a simple glance at the classical LP section of ebay’s auction site will show you that very few are interested in the mono ones. The most famous and popular Classical record of all times is, perhaps, Antal Dorati’s historic recording of the 1812 Overture done for Mercury in the mid-fifties. Because Mercury had not recorded this project so that it could later be released in stereo, they had to re-record this project later (and put it in an amazingly similar jacket) when it was clear that the demand for stereo recordings far outstripped availability. The point is that because of the special demands that recording a large orchestra entails, the need for multi-channel playback systems is far more critical here than it was on most popular records. Keep in mind, too that nearly anyone who had a Sears Silvertone tape recorder and a garage could get into the music business in those days; but few could afford to finance a recording of Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony at Orchestra Hall in Boston.

That Brian Wilson is Deaf in one ear does not mean that his fans should be. Two of the best-SOUNDING Beach Boys albums ever released, Surf’s Up and Holland, were released ONLY in stereo. Besides, the new release of Pet Sounds has, according to the ears of another BSN regular, the best sound in mono ever available for the album (I don’t know about that -- Steve Hoffman’s Vinyl LP for DCC is pretty awesome). Just program your CD player to play tracks 1 thru 13, and you will never have to hear the stereo.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have always thought that "it was meant to be heard in mono" is a weak argument for wanting everyone else to conform to one's own philosophy of what one THINKS were the motives of people who did things 30-40 years ago. If I made a decision 40 years ago, does that mean I can never change my mind? Sure, I find Olivia Newton-John doing semi-rap versions of her hits distasteful and ill-advised, but why tell others they can't like it because it wasn't supposed to be that way when she recorded them 30 years ago? At least we get a good laugh. -- MC


Name: Steve Massie
Time: 1999-07-20 18:46:19
Comments: Let me throw my proverbial two cents worth in here. First of all, it has been chronicled that Atlantic had the first 8 track reel to reel made and it was delivered in early 1958. "Splish Splash" by Bobby Darin was the first song ever recorded on that 8 track. As for the stereo vs. mono argument, let me add another perspective. I've been working the last few months on archiving all the four track half inch tapes that Bob Feldman possesses. These are the session tapes from the Angels, McCoys, Strangeloves, Bassett Hand, the Sheep and many other acts that Feldman, Goldstein and Gottehrer produced throughout the early and mid 60s. Bob Feldman and I have had many conversations about the different studios they used (which included Bell Sound, Beltone, Stea-Phillips, MiraSound, Associated and Allegro, among others) as well as the techniques they used to make these records. Since they were always working with four track machines at these studios they would first usually put down a backing track on the four tracks. Then those four tracks would be mixed down to and ping-ponged to a single track on another four track machine. They would then use the remaining three free tracks for lead vocal overdubs, backing vocals and another instrumental overdub, if necessary. So if you listen to the stereo version of "My Boyfriend's Back" you will notice the entire instrumental track is in one channel, the doubled lead vocals in the middle, and the backing vocals in the other channel. They were making records in those days that would sound great on AM radios with 2" speakers. Stereo was an afterthought usually done without even the original producers in the studio.But Bob has made it perfectly clear that he loves the new stereo mixes I've been making because he can hear everything that was going in these songs.So my point is that if there had been a reason to mix these into good stereo at the time they were originally done you can bet they would have been.So it certainly wasn't the producers' "intentions" to leave these in mono.And I'll bet you'll find most producers from the 60s (with the exception of Mr.Spector) who really appreciate what is being done with their music today.In fact, if anything, in working with these session tapes it gives me a new appreciation of what great session players they used and how good these guys really were.They made "real" records using what they had and they have far more character than almost anything you hear done today using an infinite number of tracks and overdubs.This was and is REAL music and ORIGINAL music, not something copied for the thousandth time.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-20 18:49:02
Comments: Let's clear up something, I don't think people should conform to a beleif in anything. Sure forty-plus years ago, i'll bet almost every one of the engineers and producers who worked in rock wished they could have released everything in stereo, but since AM radio, jukeboxes, and cheap record players were a hard reality for the type of music they produced, they purposely mixed the music to sound it's best on those formats. That's why I say mono was intentional. Notice I said *ROCK* music. Classical is a totally different animal. Rock music is engineered to be artificial. Interesting thing about hearing loss. If you don't have it, you don't understand how the brain can compensate for the cues missed by the bad ear. Brain Wilson may have had one good ear but no one will ever know just what he was able to percieve. After all, he did approve of the stereo mixes of "Pet Sounds".

Name: Lex Bloom
From: Boston, MA
Time: 1999-07-20 21:17:32
Comments: Yes, friends, I am also a rolling cog in the stereo/mono debate, and like many of us who spend a good deal of money on CDs, I prefer listening to music in true stereo. To put it in my own honest way, I don't believe stereo sound alters or compromises the music, rather it betters it. Stereo sound adds definition and dimension that mono can only dream about. I refer specifically to the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds", early Beatles material, and (believe it or not) the Phil Spector material. Let's not be too harsh or judgmental where peoples' individual beliefs are concerned. But then again, let's not be too quick to deny rights either. Those who prefer mono to stereo are entitled, but it's downright wrong for record companies and production brass (Messrs. Martin and Spector, are you listening?) to slam the door in the faces of those who wish to hear the music in stereo. So, I've said it. Does that truly make me wrong? Of course not. Life is for living. I live for music. I live for stereo music.

Name: Joe Barnaby
From: Massachusetts
Time: 1999-07-21 03:32:55
Comments: 1. A March 1998 interview in the UK Studio Sound magazine with veteran producer Arif Mardin, who started with Atlantic in 1963 and rose to studio manager, staff producer and arranger, and currently senior vice-president there, has some revealing comments about the recording process at Atlantic Studios in the 1960's. The Ampex 8-track recorder was not the only machine rolling during sessions. The big question is whether the 8-track session tapes were kept after a stereo master was done, or the 2, 3 or 4 track tapes recorded at the same time. http://prostudio.com/studiosound/mar98/i_mardin.html 2. According to Jerry Wexler's autobiography, Atlantic bought the Ampex 8-track for $10,000, a lot of money at the time. Early on it seemed to be used mostly to record jazz sessions until early 1958 when the r&b and pop sessions got into the act as well. The book ROCK HARDWARE has an account of Atlantic's acquistion and use of the Ampex 8-track; thankfully it is excerpted online by its British publisher http://www.balafon.dircon.co.uk/hw2.html

Name: Joe Barnaby
From: Massachusetts
Time: 1999-07-21 03:58:07
Comments: Left out of my last post was that 1957 was the year when Atlantic purchased the Ampex 8-track

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge (cooler today)
Time: 1999-07-21 12:37:39
Comments: FOR BEETLEFAN & STEVE MASSIE. Gentlemen: I am certain that you will agree with me when I say that most oldies music fans out there (now or then) would PREFER to hear the music they like (no matter whether it’s Rock, Classical, Jazz, or Country) on an ultra-modern sound system at home, or on a wide bandwidth FM stereo radio station in a late model car with a “factory-installed premium sound system,” rather than on “AM radios with 2 inch speakers.” But, BEETLEFAN, it would be almost impossible for you to hear these old records EXACTLY “the way [you] heard them when [you were] a kid” UNLESS you are riding around in a 1956 Plymouth Savoy with its original radio and speakers still intact, and there is a radio station near your home that has not upgraded its equipment OR RECORDINGS since the 1950’s. My point is that, like it or not, technological advances in audio, for both cars and the home (and in broadcasting equipment too) provide us with the potential to hear sounds in our cars and homes far differently than we did in those days.

STEVE, at the very least, what this means is that we can now hear things in those vintage records that takes us closer to the sound of the source, for better or worse. But, thanks to guys like you who can shape this music better than ever before, spurious noise, distortion, and overwrought sibilants can be abated to the point that a lot of this stuff that used to be unlistenable is actually enjoyable now. If you want to hear how bad the majority of pop music sounded back then (stereo versus mono aside), c’mon over to my house, and I’ll put my original 1963 Valiant 45 “Rhythm of The Rain” on my record player, and then we can compare it to what we might all agree is the poorest transfer to CD (in mono) of the song currently available. Nollo contendre.

But Steve, although it may be true that it has “been chronicled that Atlantic had the first 8 track reel to reel made and it was delivered in early 1958,” it is clear that several companies (other than RCA’s early ventures in the classical genre) anticipated the eventual acceptance of a second speaker in one’s living room, and thus began multi-track experimentation. The tape machines that RCA used for its early recordings were not commercially produced units as Atlantic’s were: they were “proprietary RT-21 1/4-inch 15ips machines, wired to a pair of mono mixers.” They also used Ampex model 300-3 1/2-inch 15ips to make the session tapes, which were mixed down to the masters on the RT-21’s (info taken from an RCA Living Stereo CD booklet). There are also early examples of stereo from labels such as Dot (Pat Boone), Kapp (Roger Williams) and Specialty (Lloyd Price), not to mention that some of Harry Belafonte’s recordings for RCA were done in multi-track prior to 1958, and then later released in stereo. These may have been done on 4 track machines instead of 8 track, but in listening to some of the songs recorded as early as 1956, I think it is clear that, at least for SOME of the record companies, the pursuit of quality sound (whether stereo or mono) was more than just an afterthought. It all boils down to the fact that some companies had greater financial resources than others, so they could invest in better equipment AND BETTER TALENT IN THE FORM OF THE BEST ENGINEERS OF THE DAY. Who would argue against the statement that Buddy Holly’s late 1958 recording (in stereo) of “True Love Ways” has a more natural, realistic sound than many other popular records of the period? And don’t those wonderful sounding Monument recordings of Roy Orbison (heard best on Steve Hoffman’s DCC release) demonstrate that they too had bigger plans for their music than the AM radio? I am not asserting that you and beetlefan are not correct: obviously, the mixdowns to mono were made for AM radio play indeed! It’s just that I think the distinction between the quality sound we hear from some labels of the period indicates to me that some labels had listeners other than automobile occupants in mind when they pressed their records.

Let me take the time to correct 2 errors in my earlier note. Symphony Hall is in Boston; Orchestra Hall is in Chicago. Reiner’s pioneering stereo recording was made on 3/8/54, not 1952; Feidler’s on 6/21/56.


Name: Steven Massie
Time: 1999-07-21 18:22:57
Comments: Some more comments; Steve Baird: you are correct in your observations. In the case of the tapes I mentioned that I've been going through you'll notice that they were all done at the independent studios in NYC.Those labels obviously cared more about the product they turned out than the major labels did. And because Bob Feldman and his partners were independent producers they were given a budget to work with and they went to the studios they wanted to use. In fact, in the case of a lot of the Angels tracks they did, the basics were done at Associated and then they went over to Stea-Phillips (where the 4 Seasons recorded) just to do the vocals because of the sound they got. And yes,they did work with first rate engineers like Brooks Arthur, Nat Schnapp, Eddie Smith and others. These were the guys who really did the "dirty" work in allowing them to do all the tracks,overdubs,and mixes they were able to do.Listening to these sessions, which sometimes included up to 20 takes per song with all the chatter in between, gave me a whole new respect and perspective for what they were able to do in the studio.They used first rate musicians who knew exactly what and how to put down on tape what the producer's wanted.Among the musicians FGG used were Bobby Comstock, Everett Barksdale, Bob Bushnell, Herb Lovell and many other studio veterans.The string players were obviously first rate,too. So, yes, it does bring one much closer to the music and the intentions of the producers and artists.It has all been an extremely enlightening experience for me and I really wish that the other "real" music fans would have the opportunity I've had to hear these songs as they were originally done with "warts" and all.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-21 18:52:06
Comments: Steve Baird, I don't want to get into a senseless row over formats but you can't assume I heard things on a car AM radio. I listened to original 45's and LP's on a 1960's Garrard turntable and a tube stereo amp of which brand and type? I don't know. I'll have to ask my dad. When I say *exactly* I mean the way the song was mixed.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-21 22:48:51
Comments: Just picked up "The Best Of Wilson Pickett" (Atlantic SD8151) from a friend today. Interesting. The notes clearly state "With the exception of 'Funky Broadway' & 'Soul Dance Number Three' which were originally recorded in stereo, all the selections in this album have been electronically re-processed for stereo from the original monophonic recordings." *However*, it ends up that both 'Mustang Sally' and 'Everybody Needs Somebody To Love' are in true stereo. Mind you, not very good, but... Both have the main track reprocessed, with backing vocals, tambourine, etc mixed hard left. Now, why the main track wasn't just mixed in mono to the center is beyond me, but... It would be nice if the original two track tape still existed to mix the main track center and the overdubs left... Which brings me to...it sounds like Muscle Shoals only had a stereo machine at the time - some people have said they had a 4 track.

Name: Tom Daly
Website: Skyline Digital Audio Restoration Service
From: Metro Boston
Time: 1999-07-22 13:07:44
Comments: Okay, since the discussion of Atlantic's recording gear has been brought up, I'll interject something else... Prior to the 15 ips multitrack machines appearing in the mid-late 50s, the highest fidelity was obtained using 30 ips full-track machines. CBS had some terrific recordings in the 50s that were cut at 30 ips, and so did Decca, Coral, and Mercury. The latter were cut at Fine Recording Studio in NYC. As early as 1949, Billie Holiday's classic recording of "Tain't Nobody's Bizness If I Do" was cut at 30 ips. That recording has a presence that's missing from 15 ips masters. Try Sal Mineo's "Start Movin' (in My Direction) on Epic. 30 ips again. Unfortunately, I don't know of ANY stereo recordings that were cut at 30 ips. It was common in the late 50s to make a multitrack tape simultaneously with a mono master, so while the mono master was cut at 30, the stereo master was made at 15 and lacks the presence found on the 30 ips tape. Most CBS 45s from the late 1050s that were cut in NYC were made from the 30 ips masters, as they were mono anyway. FYI: Skyline's website has moved to its new location at http://www.sdars.com

Name: Mike Arcidiacono
Time: 1999-07-22 17:34:53
Comments: Re: 30ips Very interesting comments by my pal Tom Daly about early '50s 30ips recordings. This sheds alot of light on why some recordings done in the mid 50s blow away others done 5 or so years later. I wonder tho, if Ampex made a full track 30 ips machine. I dont think they did--most studios had an Ampex 200 or 300 or 350...and all of those were 15ips. Tom is right about the fidelity...30ips in general is FANTASTIC, you think the band is in the room with you. My band cut some 30ips stuff awhile back and it was just super. Tom....can you name some more specific recordings like the Sal Mineo that were done this way?? They should sound amazing on Cd if they use the 30ips master. Mikey

Name: Curt Lundgren
Website: Reel Top 40 Radio
From: Twin Cities
Time: 1999-07-22 17:48:34
Comments: Just back from visiting my daughter in San Francisco, and I want to pass along a great store for used CDs: Amoeba Music. I spent an all-too-brief hour in the Haight store, and found the following used (all for $6.99): Peter & Gordon/"EP Collection" (See For Miles), Marv Johnson/"Best Of" (EMI Legends), Jive Five/"Complete UA Recordings" (EMI Legends), Knickerbockers/"Presenting the Fabulous..." (Sundazed) and the Arista Dion & the Belmonts "24 Original Classics" disc. The EMI pair were band-sawed, but still sealed. They have a store in Berkeley as well, so if you're ever in the City.... check'em out!

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-22 18:33:42
Comments: To Tom Daly, beetlefan & others who might be interested in solving a sound quality mystery. Some of you who have read my posts at BSN might think that I don’t take the issue of sound quality very seriously, but I really do. I agree with Tom that a 30ips tape will always sound better than a 15ips one when the two are made simultaneously from the same mixing board (and the signal is being fed to two identical tape machines on which the same tape is being used). I’ll even go out on a limb and say that even if the 15ips machine is superior in quality to the 30ips one, the potential exists that the results from the 30ips will still be better. That is, if the 2 are precisely the same in every other respect except the speed at which the tape was running over the heads. But from there, I start down my own path.

I had been considering buying my own CD-Recorder for my computer until I discovered that it was impossible to make a copy of a commercially recorded music CD that sounded exactly like the original. Additional research (done in conjunction with 2 others in Baton Rouge who have also discovered this to be true) has shown us that we can also alter the sound we get out of CD recorders by varying the BRAND of blank CD we use to make the copies (believe it or not, we found the sound from a copy made on a Verbatim blank to be preferable to that from a Sony). We tried our experiments on 3 different CD recorders -- one of them was an industrial grade CD duplicator requiring no software at all (it wasn’t even connected to a computer). The 2 PC based units were from Hi-Val (Panasonic) and Sony. We found the Hi-Val yielded the closest copy to the original, the CD duplicator next, and then the Sony came in with the least accurate of the 3 copies we made. We also experimented with some of the new SBM 20-bit remasters from Sony, just to see what would happen when these were duplicated using a computer capable of only 16-bit reproduction. I won’t get into the differences we heard (that might be a later post), but they were many.

We A/B blind tested each other using 2 Carver SD/A490t CD players to play back 2 original CDs first (so that all 3 of us could get a feel for the way they sounded). Then each of us would take turns testing the other 2 by loading at random either the original and one copy, or the two copies (we could not see what was being loaded) into the two players. One person participating in this test (not me) scored perfectly. For each of the six tests, he correctly identified the Sony & Verbatim copies from the original. I was correct on only 16 of the 18 possibilities; guy #3, a non-audiophile was correct only 13 times. Statistics might tell you this is impossible, but we heard what we heard. Comments? Plausible explanations?


Name: Tom Daly
Website: Skyline Digital Audio Restoration Service
From: Metro Boston
Time: 1999-07-22 18:35:48
Comments: To Mike Arcidiacono: There were quite a few: "A White Sport Coat (and a Pink Carnation)" comes to mind, as well as the mono master for "Take Five." Billy Williams' "I'm Gonna Sit Right Down and Write Myself a Letter" sounds like it was 30 ips, but I can't verify it. Jo Stafford's "Pinetop's Boogie Woogie" also sounds like it was cut at 30 ips. One CD that really shows what 30 ips could do is on Emarcy (Mercury): "Clifford Brown with Strings." Even though it's mono, you'd swear that trumpet was right in front of you! It's not hissy, either.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-22 20:32:43
Comments: Steve, that's very interesting! The recording pros have always said that all CD-R writers leave their own sonic imprint. I believe this as well. I used a Hewlett Packard 7200i up until a couple of weeks ago, and it sounded wonderful, wide and airy. The HP 7570i I just replaced it with sounds colder, or more analytical. I also found slight differences with blank media. Imation sounds warm and Memorex sounds grainy. I've been using a ton of Sony's lately because they've been cheap. To my ears they sound very good. Verbatums sound robust. Perhaps there are psyhoacoustical things going on here, and there are those who will scoff and say bits are bits. But I also hear differences. Jitter, no doubt plays a part in this, as the issue prompted Phillips/Sony to revise the Red-Book standards concerning this a couple of years ago. But the diferrences I hear aren't enough to force me to use one brand ofer the other because of sound. But, I will not use Maxell. Period. I even downloaded some software-I can't remember the name, but you can get it with the Smart and Friendly CD-RW-that checks the integrity of your CD-R's. I copied a Time-Life Blues Legends CD at 2x and checked the original with the copy. They were not bit-for-bit, but sounded the same using a Sony blank. I tried this again using the disc image method in CD Creator. Again, not an exact copy. If you do copy CD-R's never run the original through a soundcard. If you record to a hard drive first, always use Disc-at-Once. One thing, though, a "20, 22 or 24-bit" mastered CD will always be 16 bit in reality. So you copied a 16 bit CD to a 16 bit CD-R.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-22 20:52:06
Comments: Steve, I wouldn't worry about not getting a bit-accurate copy. Again, don't run the data through a soundcard. The card only matters ifn you're going to master LP's and tapes to CD-R. And if you do that, just don't use a SoundBlaster 16 or 64 AWE. For recorders, I recommend HP, Plextor, Traxdata, Phillips and maybe Acer. I've heard too many negative things about Sony and Memorex, and had a bad experience with Ricoh.

Name: chris b
From: oh
Time: 1999-07-22 20:50:31
Comments: Has Tommy Roe's "Carol" ever been released in stereo?(record or cd) On his ABC 12 in a Roe Lp, Tommy states that Carol was recorded in Florence Alabama. He also states that "Party Girl" was recorded in Alabama and it's in stereo. Anyone know what happen?

Name: chris b
From: oh
Time: 1999-07-22 20:45:24
Comments: Has Tommy Roe's "Carol" ever been released in stereo?(record or cd) On his ABC 12 in a Roe Lp, Tommy states that Carol was recorded in Florence Alabama. He also states that "Party Girl" was recorded in Alabama and it's in stereo. Anyone know what happen?

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-22 23:13:44
Comments: In reply to several recent posts regarding 15IPS and 30IPS. The very first Ampex models (owned by Bing Crosby and Les Paul) were, I believe, 30IPS only. But soon after, the machines could record at two speeds... either 15 and 30 or 7 1/2 and 15. I agree with the various posts on the tape speed matter. The response on the low end would normally be truer when recording at 30 IPS. But you could only make comparisions by having two perfectly tweaked machines that were guaranteed to be operating within Ampex factory specs for speed, wow, flutter, proper biasing, etc. and make simultaneous recordings on each machine - one at 15, the other at 30. On the matter of master tapes... having worked in the studios at BMG, Sony, Capitol, MCA and (R.I.P. PolyGram), I can tell you that generally the early 50's songs were all recorded at 30IPS and at a rather low (by today' standards) level. Also, these early 30IPS tapes are generally very quiet and if they were properly wound and stored (tails out) they probably have little or no print-through. The smaller independent studios outside the major markets were probably more concerned with the cost of supplies than the majors, and were more apt to record at 15IPS. Remember, at 30IPS tape cost doubles. After the majors decided that machines could reproduce accurately at the slower 15IPS speed, they then began mixing from 30IPS 3 and 4 track masters to 15 IPS mono singles. In answer to Tom... Decca and Coral tapes (mono singles, at least) are 30IPS. I haven't used the Billy Williams tape on any project, but other Decca and Coral hits I've used from 1957 are all 30IPS masters. For all the mono singles it was their practice to always record two 30IPS masters simultaneously, this is to say two Ampexes (Ampii?) running concurrently. These "masters" are typically stored on 7" plastic reels with the "A" and "B" side of the single on the same reel. No alternate takes. No breakdowns. Rarely studio chatter. When you work in the studio, you are most times given "two" versions of the master from which to choose. On some occasions one may be damaged or one may be lost (possibly a euphemism for stolen.) Generally you can always get one. BMG (RCA Victor) on the other hand only recorded one 30IPS master at a session. Working at their studio can be more problematic since many of these original 50's mono masters (30 IPS) have been ruined by careless handling over the years or from too frequent use. The only alternative here is to master from another source, in some cases an EP tape which may have contained the hit single, or an LP master containing the song. But the album master would most certainly be a 15 IPS copy. Yet, if the copy was made early on (soon after the record was released) this copy could be in very good condition. But remember, in those days they believed that once lacquers were cut and the records were out, they would probably never go back to the original tapes again. They certainly had no way of knowing there would be a BSN web site 45 years later! (I take that back, Dionne Warwick and Shirley MacLaine may have been able to predict it.) And to think, back in the mid-50's the world would have to wait another 20 or so years for the birth of Luke Pacholski.

Name: Richard Klakowich
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Time: 1999-07-23 17:39:40
Comments: Does anyone have any comments/opinions on the 2-CD set "Lost Hits of the Sixties" available from Collector's Choice Music?

Name: Larry Davis
From: Longview WA
Time: 1999-07-23 18:37:38
Comments: The discussion on the sound of different CD-R blanks and machines makes perfect sense to me, since I've always sworn I could tell the difference in different blank cassette tapes by brand, even though they are being recorded at 1 7/8 IPS....It also seems probable that the 45s Tom has listed could well have been made at 30 IPS as they all do have great sound in mono. If "A White Sport Coat" was recorded at 30 IPS, then it's probable that all of Marty Robbins' New York sessions with Ray Conniff was recorded that way. The best sounding reissues of that Robbins' material, I think, is on Bear Family's ROCKIN' ROLLIN' ROBBINS.........And that raises a question that some of you may have knowledge about. Even though Richard Weize usually cites the German branch of the American labels as his licensing source, it's obvious that he sometimes (or usually) comes to the U.S. to make his digital transfers from the original master tapes.....But are there times when the second or third generation tapes sent to Europe might have better sound than the best copies that can be found in the labels' vaults in the U.S.?....Does anyone know of specific examples when this was true? ...... Did they send dubs of the entire master tapes to their overseas branches or only copies of the finished masters? ........To Tom Daly: the URL you gave took me to China. :) My IE browser said I needed to download the Chinese language add-on to properly view the page. That's the difference between sdars.com and sdars.net......To Marty Wekser: Thanks for the tip on the new gospel CD with "Open Up Your Heart". I've received ads mailed from the Good Music Company offering it for $21.95 until August 11th. That's a good deal for 36 tracks that I also now know will be of good quality. That was really one of those 50's tracks that I had decided would NEVER be on CD, when it wasn't on any of the Decca County Classics or Decca Hits And Standards sets that came out in 1994.

Name: Christopher Kissel
From: Long Island, NY
Time: 1999-07-23 21:13:29
Comments: Geez! Tom Moulton leaves a post on here about Louie Louie and Angel Baby in stereo and nobody comments about it! Go figure!

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-23 21:36:29
Comments: Hey, I e-mailed Tom Moulton. The first time I e-mailed him was a few months ago with a couple of questions about the Andrea True Connection "Best of". He was quite helpful. You can't judge a character though a letter but he struck me as a nice guy. BTW, he says that the singles masters he used on that compilation were in his apartment. No one had ever asked him for them. They are hissy. The 12" version of "What's Your Name, What's Your Number" came from a 197-something cassette dub of the master, which is not around. Just thought you'd like to know.

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-24 00:09:52
Comments: A reply to Larry Davis. Let's say we start out with a 30 IPS master of "A White Sport Coat". Columbia makes lacquers for the three U.S. pressing plants (back then they usually cut 1A-1B through 1E-1F. Generally 1A and 1B went to Pitman, New Jersey, 1C and 1D went to Terre Haute, Indiana and 1E and 1F went to Santa Maria, California. The same "scribing" system applied to album masters. In the days when they were still recording masters at 30IPS, they would have to make a 1st generation copy to 15IPS to go on an album master reel (10" reel which could hold usually one side of an album.) OK. Now on an album, they would make a copy of that album production master to send overseas to all their affiliated companies (i.e. England, Australia, Japan, Germany, France). Now since there was generally only one "album production master", you can see that every time they needed to generate a copy, it was this same tape going over the heads of an Ampex. This equates to a lot of plays of this one tape. Then, if a pressing plant in the U.S. needed new lacquers because their stampers were wearing out (on a hit album), then this tape would be used to cut even more lacquers. But the copy that went to, say, Germany may have been used only once. So in answer to your question, I think the German production tape master of that Marty Robbins may well sound better than what is presently in the Sony vaults in Iron Mountain (where these things are stored.) On the other hand, up until the advent of CD's and the persistence of certain mastering engineers to try to locate the absolute ORIGINAL master tape of a song, tape vaults routinely sent up copies to be used for generating CD masters. Listening on high end equipment, you can certainly hear the difference between CD's made using tenth generation tapes as opposed to original masters. But you can also be fooled by nimble use of eq. You can spruce up the sound on an old tape by sometimes adding a little bottom, mid-range or top end. I suspect Richard does this when he feels it will make the music sound better. (I know I do it judiciously when I am mastering). If applied in a subtle manner, I feel it can make songs recorded and mixed back in the fifties sound a little better today on a digital sound carrier. But again, we're talking SUBTLE. When someone writes a post to this site and says they just got a remastered Carpenters, for example, and the bass is much more noticeable than on the original to the point of it being annoying, you know someone did not understand SUBTLE! I

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-24 03:00:58
Comments: I happen to like the sound of the new Carpenters remasters. But how many of us, besides the engineer or a priviliged few have access to the flat, un-eq'ed masters, played back on proper equipment?

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-24 12:39:41
Comments: Marty, re: I think either CBS changed their system or you are missing a step... Steve Hoffman noted when doing Dylan's Highway 61 that the mono and stereo mixdowns would end up (presumably edited together) on a reel - one for each side of the LP if I'm not mistaken. This would be the first generation mixdown. That tape was copied with EQ, compressing, etc for LP cutting. *That* tape would be the LP production master. It would be used for copying, cutting, etc. The original mixdown reel would have been used *once*, to make the production master - it was even labeled "Do Not Use". So in many cases the original mixdown reel(s) is intact, having only been played a handful of times at the most. Check out http://www.edlis.org/twice/threads/hwy61_DCC.html

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-24 13:46:59
Comments: That was a good interview. Of course, we no longer have to worry about CBS management, and it's a different day. Imagine if Steve Hoffman hadn't been able to access those mixdown tapes? And what would that album sound like if someone did remix "Highway 61 Revisited"? Now we have to deal with Legacy.

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-24 14:34:36
Comments: Luke - you are indeed correct. All the cutting rooms at Columbia (and really all cutting rooms), were equipped with eq and limiting abilities as a step before the cutting lathe, so at least they had the option of adjusting the settings on an original master before cutting a lacquer. The reason why they didn't do it that way was that the major labels in those days (due to sheer volume of work) employed many cutting engineers and so the theory was to prepare an eq'd production master that any engineer could work with in any cutting room and on any cutting lathe and the results would be the same since all the settings were already built into the cutting master. Of course the only sacrifice was that this was not really the original source master anymore. Also, it really would be impossible to work with a "various artists" album using presumably the original masters. Just think, in the 50's some original masters were 15IPS, some were 30IPS, some were cut at lower or higher levels, etc. You would really have had to make an assembled dubbed "cutting master". Though on singles, this would not necessarily be the case. You really could use the original master and adjust the settings before hitting the cutting lathe. I believe that's how they did it at Bell Sound, which did a lot of lacquer cutting in those days in addition to their lucrative studio recording. Most independent cutting engineers (i.e. Bernie Grundman) did not subscribe to the "Columbia" system of lacquer cutting. He would actually use the assembled original LP master and have two independent sets of eq and levels in his console. He could switch eq on the spread between songs for the upcoming eq and levels on the following selection. This way he did not have to use an eq'd production master. This is the way many of the original A&M parts were cuts (by Bernie), also "Thriller", etc. In Bernie's mastering room, cards were accurately kept which reflected the settings to be used for each track on an album and successive lacquers were always made this way. Thankfully, at least today we are able to request ORIGINAL master tapes when doing projects and they are usually supplied. We often get "Do Not Use" tapes also. I think most record companies now realize that in the CD/digital medium, quality is really important. But it still takes the work of independent labels and producers to constantly remain vigilant and demand original or as close to original masters as exist.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-24 15:21:01
Comments: Beetlefan: I don't know about Highway 61, but Sony's gold CD of Blonde On Blonde was remixed from the original multitracks... I've heard the response was very good on that CD, although I have not heard it myself...

Name: Bob Fink
From: CONN.
Time: 1999-07-25 11:38:03
Comments: Hi to all. Has anyone received any info. regarding a Dave Clark Five 2-fer from Europe that's being advertised by a few dealers? I'm wondering if it's legit, and if so, what it might have for stereo content. "Coast to Coast" is one of the titles...I can't remember the other one offhand. Anyone seen, or heard it? Thanks.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge (cooler here today than Baltimore)
Time: 1999-07-25 16:21:21
Comments: beetlefan, Luke & Marty: Since I own both of the 2 Dylan CDs, I'd like to point out (very briefly this time) that the major reason why I wanted the Gold Blonde on Blonde was that it restored many of the fades off the original LP that had been cut off the original aluminum CD. Correct me if I'm wrong on this aspect of it, but if I remember correctly, CDs had a shorter playing time originally, and so to make it fit on 1 CD, CBS decided that the way to do it was to shorten the fades and lead-ins. Frankly, the sound quality on the original B on B seemed a little better to me than on the gold, but this may have been addressed again in the subsquent SBM that Sony released shortly after the MasterSound series was deleted.

As for the DCC Highway 61, it stands as a testimonial to the great talents of Steve Hoffman. It is, in some ways superior to my original "six-eye" first pressing of the LP, which absolutely creams the original CD (from the mid eighties) in every respect. Since Sony has just remastered several of Dylan's albums to SBM, I look for this one to be in my TotalE shopping cart the very day it is listed. The DCC, BTW, is worth big money to collectors.


Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-25 20:44:11
Comments: In reply to Steve Baird - I'm not sure what the redbook standards are for CD length. They say you can get 78 minutes on a CD though a lot of the major companies prefer not to go above 76 minutes. MCA requires special approvals before sending parts to plants which exceed 76 minutes. Also, in the early days, CD players were not quite as good. Very often they would not play the last few minutes of a CD properly. And if the last track started at 74 minutes in, very often the player could not access this track properly. The same problems often occured with car players and home computer CD players. Fortunately players are better today so you can safely run to 78 minutes. As for early analog to digital transfers, especially Sony (circa 1987), they are generally very bad for two reasons: 1. They generally used production masters which were generations away from the originals, but I believe more importantly 2. The analog to digital converters were not as good, nor was the system which was used before 1630. You'll see a marked improvement on everything being redone by Sony today, whether Legacy, Sony and Epic pop, Masterworks and even Special Markets. Though I'm sure Original Cast albums are not the favorites of most BSN readers, you'll find a marked improvement on the sound exhibited on the newly issued "MAME" as opposed to the original one back in the late 80's. For that matter, all the new Sony Legacy Original Cast albums sound better. A final point... the reason why many of the original CD's (1987,88) from the major labels sound so bad is that for a period of time these labels were under the gun to release a massive amount of titles for this new medium. I'm sure there just wasn't time to evaluate different sources and what was used was simply the most accessible tape (usually a production master.) Remember, this was at a time when everyone was clamoring for titles and it was not unheard of for a major label to release 20 titles at a time.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-25 21:57:01
Comments: It's a shame the record companies keep releasing the same stuff over and over, even when they know the sound or program isn't what it should be. While I don't think it's a consipircy to keep us buying the same thing repeatedly, I think it's only to make a quick buck. It's shortsightedness on their part. It's also too bad that many people have gotten all of their oldies on CD, because only now are companies starting to release better sounding CD's. Only we collectors and a few straglers are keeping the reissue thing alive. The general public is also still ignorant of the improved sounds. When I bought the Huey Lewis remaster a couple of weeks ago, a co-worker replied to me, "Aw man, you wasted your money. I could've found that same CD for eight bucks in the used section." Yeah, I know i'm off the subject, but I had to get that out.

Name: Luke Pacholski
Website: LukPac.org
From: Racine, WI
Time: 1999-07-25 23:04:55
Comments: Marty, re: I believe the max on a CD is upwards of 80 minutes now. I'm not sure what Red Book says, but my Who Rarities CD is 79:19 (Polygram Germany) and 80 minute CD-R blanks are now available, so...

Name: Steve Baird
From: B. R., LA
Time: 1999-07-26 09:29:25
Comments: Marty, back in the early days of digital, people looked at me like I was crazy (they still do, but that's another story) when I told them that CDs sounded as bad as they did. So, a big round of applause should be going up from all of us to people like you who recognized that a lot of those early CDs really did sound like s-h-eye-t.

But beetlefan, while I agree with you that they shouldn't oughta be re-issuing all the same stuff over and over again, don't you agree (really) that you would rather pay for the same music again if it sounded better than the original CD release. Yeah, they shoulda done it right the first time, but we all learn from our mistakes. I hate to keep pounding on CBS/Sony, but it would be awful if they hadn't bothered to remaster Abraxas. That new 24-bit version they came out with last year was immensely better than the version that came out in the '80's. That earlier CD was just about as bad-sounding as anything CBS released. And don't forget about all those super Byrds reissues either.


Name: Bradley Olson
Website: Bradley Olson--A Person With Autism
From: Bemidji, Minnesota
Time: 1999-07-26 10:46:19
Comments: Sometimes when people buy CD's, people find out a few improved pressings had already been announced. For example, I more recently bought the current aluminum CD of Willie Nelson's "Stardust" album, originally released on vinyl in 1978, at a used CD store, which doesn't sound that good and could use improvement, which as I found out in ICE a few days later, will be remastered and expanded in the end of August along with Tammy Wynette's "Stand By Your Man," (Koch has done a straight reissue of this album but Legacy's version will have bonus tracks), Marty Robbins's "Gunfighter Ballads & Trail Songs," (this is the 3rd CD pressing I know of for this 1959 album, the CD that came out in 1990, according to Mike's book, with 1980's style packaging, which is still the current domestic pressing, the import twofer featuring this and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" and now the upcoming remaster) and other country albums.

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-26 13:12:08
Comments: To Steve, Let's not forget how CBS chopped up many albums, used 8-Track masters, ect... You are right about the Abarxas and Byrds reissues! I only have a couple of remasters from each of these bands but they sound astounding. Look out for the Janis Joplin remasters too! I also just heard that the new Buffalo Springfield box has been mastered and ready to go but legal issues are holding it up. Also, the new Neil Young, yes I said, NEIL YOUNG box will be out soon. I can't wait until tomorrow when the first batch of the new Earth, Wind & Fire remasters hit the streets. They've all been supervised by Maurice White, the original producer, and they all have bonus tracks. Judging from the timing of the song "Happy Feelings" on the "That's The Way Of The World" CD, they have corrected another one of their hatchet jobs by restoring a musical interlude they cut out of the original 80's CD release. It has been a thorn in my side for years. I haven't heard a thing about the new Isley Brothers box but that will be out tomorrow as well. While CBS was to blame for some of the worst sounding CD's no other company was worse, in my mind, than Motown in the early days of CD. Polymedia, Universal special group, or whatever they call themselves now still has a lot of work to do on their newly aquired monsterous catalog.

Name: Glenn Sauter
From: Wash DC
Time: 1999-07-26 14:40:47
Comments: There's been alot of debate here regarding whether it is possible for overseas record companies to have better sounding tapes of American recordings, even if thery're another generation removed. As some here have suggested, the lower generation US tapes have been used for numerous productions and have passed over the heads of a playback machine many times, resulting in degradtion. Also, keep in mind that American owned record companies have changed hands much more than their European counterparts. Therefore, these European companies still have a fairly reliable inventory of what tapes are in their possession. Case in point, when Rhino records mastered "Woo-hoo"-The Rock-a-teens, "Ghost Riders In The Sky"-The Ramrods and "Harlem Nocturne"-The Viscounts for their Instrumental series, Rhino used vinyl for the masters. The same three songs appear from tape masters on various ACE releases. Also, for Steve Baird: Steve, that CD that contained "BABY"-Carla Thomas in stereo that you recommended here, saying folks should buy it, is made up almost entirely of rerecordings including BABY. Someone who contributes to this chatboard should know better.

Name: Mark Hanson
Website:
From: Niles, MI
Time: 1999-07-26 22:31:21
Comments: I've been reading BSN for five or six years, but this is my first message. I've finished reading the last 250 messages and the chat archives (you gotta get the missing year in there!). I have a few comments... Re: ABKCO (sorry, the stuff a year ago was full of ABK). I've never seen this idea: Maybe Klein continues to refuse to license the Cameo/Parkway masters because he makes more money from lawsuits against bootlegging and sampling. What a world, what a world! Re: The Columbia Johnny Cash box set. It was remastered about the same time as the Dylan "Biograph" set, and all the Columbia tracks are now in glorious stereo! Thanks, Bob Irwin. Re: The ongoing chat about blank CD-R's. As a computer and electronics geek, the key phrase in the whole discussion is "bit-for-bit". If the copies are not bit-for-bit, they may or may not sound the same, depending on the error rate and the type of errors which occur in the copy process. This accounts for disk to disk, manufacturer to manufacturer differences. But going further, NO CD is ever a true bit-for-bit copy like a floppy disc is. In fact, no two production CDs are ever identical, because of imperfections in the plastic and pressing. That's why they have error correcting code. Even more fun: No single CD ever plays the same way twice, because of slight differences in the tracking of the laser and minor disk surface dirt and imperfections. I've got more, but gotta go now. -- MBH

Name: David R. Modny
Time: 1999-07-26 23:09:47
Comments: Re: Various subjects - For those interested in how various CD-R media measure up, error-wise, here's a link - http://www.digido.com/meadows.html - These tests were done by mastering engineer Glenn Meadows and you may be surprised on how some brands actually stacked up against the rest. Also, with all of the recent discussion about remasters, it is important to note that 20bit and 24bit A/D transfers still have to be dithered down to 16bit (as opposed to simple bit truncation which would severely degrade the results). It is these various "noise-shaping" curves such as SBM, Apogee UV-22, HDCD (which is actually a dual-ended system), etc... that account for a great deal on how a "higher bit" transfer will sound when it hits the consumer's CD player. This coupled with quality mastering (for which there is NO greater substitute!), still are what separate the "good one" from the junk! I also find it interesting that Steve Hoffman, who has produced some of the finest sounding transfers today, still uses a "basic" 16bit transfer (coupled with his tube mastering chain) for his, IMHO, great work...further proof that the mastering engineer still holds the key (assuming he has quality masters to begin with)to the magic!

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-26 23:12:48
Comments: Reply to Mark Hanson. I don't think Allen Klein could make any money suing people who are bootlegging Cameo/Parkway masters on CD. He does, however, make a fortune on licensing tracks from the Rolling Stones, Beatles, Phil Spector, Sam Cooke catalogs for film/tv/commercials. The income generated from these uses is infinitely more than he will ever make by reissuing Cameo/Parkway masters on CD. Since I make my livelihood in the field of licensing music for film and tv, I can tell you that ABKCO holds out for about the highest fees possible for both master recordings and sync fees (publishing). Many film and tv people will only go to ABKCO if their film absolutely must have one of these songs since the cost is usually prohibitive. The two best explanations why this material doesn't come out on CD have been listed on this web site many many many many times, but I still think they are the most logical (trying to get an honest answer from Jody Klein will get you nowhere.) 1: There are many pending lawsuits over unpaid royalties which will get triggered should this material be released. 2: The material is sort of ready to be released but Klein is looking for way too much money as an advance and the major record companies really don't believe they can recoup such a large cash outlay. The sad thing is this... except for the devoted music fans and collectors (those of you who are always checking out this site), the number of people who have heard of The Dovells, The Orlons, Dee Dee Sharp, etc., not to mention the more well-known Chubby Checker and Bobby Rydell, grows smaller and smaller as time goes on. I, too, hope this material sees the light of day within the next year or two because after that, the demand for this will be significantly less and no major company will license it from ABKCO for the high dollars. This would normally be the kind of music Taragon or Varese could do a great job packaging, but this will never happen.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-27 00:04:29
Comments: To Marty Wekser: What planet do you live on? Michael Jackson owns licencing rights to most of the Beatles catalog. Segrams owns two more.

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-27 02:51:56
Comments: Beetlefan.. certainly you must be aware that I was talking about licensing the Beatles masters in addition to the publishing rights for commercials and feature films. Michael Jackson may be able to grant synchronization licenses, but his company certainly cannot issue licenses on behalf of the Apple recordings. I was, in my post, citing specifically the Master recordings of The Beatles, The Stones, Sam Cooke and Philles Records. In the case of Phil Spector, ABKCO controls licensing rights to all the masters and also to the publishing, at least on songs where Spector is a writer (and he shares writing credit on a number of the big hits with Barry Mann, Cynthia Weil, Jeff Barry and Ellie Greenwich.) As for the Stones, I believe ABKCO licenses both masters and publishing, at least on some of the earlier catalog.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-27 06:07:37
Comments: Here's the way I understand it. EMI owns most of the Beatles masters which are issued on Apple Records, which is distributed by EMI. Michael Jackson owns Northern Songs, the publishing company that controls most of the Beatle catalog. Many years ago he outbid Paul McCartney for the ownership of Northern Songs, the publisher of the majority of the Beatle EMI catalog. Rumor at the time had it that Paul was angry with MJ because he had been waiting for the chance to aquire the rights to his former band's work and because they were such good friends. A lot of the fighting between the Beatles back in 1968 was due to the other three Beatles wanting to bring in Allen Klein after Brian Epstien died to sort out the mess at Apple. Paul wanted to bring in hie brother-in-law. Dick James, I believe, owned Northern Songs, Ltd. at the time. Now, if I am wrong in any of my information, tell me.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-27 14:00:00
Comments: Glen Sauter is right of course: I should be ashamed of myself for not checking that Charly CD out more thoroughly. I haved donned my dunce cap, and will stand in the corner for the next hour. At least I can take solace in the fact that the CD is not generally available (OOP) so there aren't many who will suffer from my egregious error.

Name: Charlie Brown
From: Perrysburg Ohio
Time: 1999-07-27 16:41:18
Comments: Hello All... I have two questions. First has anyone heard the recent "remastered " greatest hits CD from BMG of The Guess Who ? I hope this disc will be a sonic upgrade of both the old single disc and the terrible 3 CD set for the Guess Who. I hope BMG does as good as Sony did on the upgraded Blood Sweat And Tears Greatest Hits disc that came out earlier this year. Does anyone know where I can obtain a list of all the titles released by Capitol in their Capitol Collectors Series and EMI's Legendary Masters or Legends Of Rock series? Sadly many of these early nineties titles are now long gone and out of print. Thanks . Charlie

Name: Alex Shkoditzh
From: Long Island, NY
Time: 1999-07-27 18:45:03
Comments: While I agree that the current crop of remastered cd's sound better than the original releases of the mid to late 1980's, comparing them to first pressing vinyls is not fair. Even though vinyl had it's limitations, first gen pressings were "-->that much<---" closer to the source. Compare those early releases with early to mid 80's lp pressings and I think the difference is more profound. I always felt that Rhino initially achieved it's reputation on finding "niche" music that was unavailable (or available in poor quality), and presenting the masters they received in an un-eq'd (or re-eq'd) state. Unfortunately for them, their are soooo many who have done a better job these days locating better masters. Hell, Time-Life collections sound ten times better than a standard Rhino release.

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-27 20:02:53
Comments: To Alex: I suspect that Rhino has tapes of things in their library and just uses them over and over. To Charlie Brown: The Guess Who double CD was done by a canadian record company. BMG just used the masters. To all: The new Earth, Wind & Fire remasters are what a remaster should be! Restored LP graphics, new liner notes, bonus tracks, and most of all, superior sound and, especially, the "That's The Way Of The World" CD was restored to it's original 1975 state. Somehow, I don't think anyone here is interseted.

Name: Tom Daly
Website: Skyline Digital Audio Restoration Service
From: Metro Boston
Time: 1999-07-27 20:41:20
Comments: To Alex: I might point out that the sound production on many Time-Life packages is done by the same individuals who contribute the same service to Rhino. Both companies are divisions of Time-Warner, so it would stand to reason there would be some production overlap between the two.

Name: Charles G. Hill
Website: The Web Site Formerly Known As Chez Chaz
From: Dustbury, Oklahoma
Time: 1999-07-27 20:43:28
Comments: Assuming Philip Norman, author of Shout! The Beatles in Their Generation has the particulars correct, Dick James' original Northern Songs deal was 50 percent to Dick James Music, 20 percent to John, 20 percent to Paul, and 10 percent to Brian Epstein - which was actually far better than the usual contract in those days. In 1965, Northern Songs went public; after the distribution, Dick James Music held 23 percent of the company, John and Paul 30 percent between them, George and Ringo 1.6 percent between them, and NEMS Enterprises (the surviving Brian Epstein operation) 7.5 percent. ATV (Lord Grade's conglomerate, though he wasn't a peer at that time) had been buying up shares in Northern Songs, and in March 1969, they bought out Dick James' interest, giving them 35 percent total; an effort contrived by Allen Klein to buy back enough Northern shares to give the Beatles majority control failed, and by late May, ATV had achieved control of Northern.

Name: Art Shifrin
From: Fresh Meadows, Queens, NYC
Time: 1999-07-27 21:20:08
Comments: Hi, I'm hoping to borrow or acquire the closest possible mint 12" Victor LP "An Adventure In High Fidelity". This includes a tone poem written by Robert Russell Bennet. It was issued in 1954 on LM 1802. Thanks

Name: Don Duffey
From: Buffalo
Time: 1999-07-27 22:16:00
Comments: To Tom Molton: I wanna hear "Angel Baby" & "Louie Louie" in stereo!!! keep us up to speed on these tapes please!

Name: Marty Wekser
From: Los Angeles
Time: 1999-07-27 23:13:47
Comments: To Beetlefan: Your comment was well taken. But I wasn't interested in a documentation of Beatles publishing. My comments related specifically to the Cameo-Parkway situation and that Mr. Klein makes considerably more money licensing music for film, tv and commercials than he can possibly make on the Cameo-Parkway product. I was incorrect in stating that Klein issues Master licenses for Beatles (Apple) product. This is done through Apple. But when you license a Beatles performance, you must get a license from the record company in addiiton to a sync. license from the Publisher. Klein still licenses Stones London masters, Spector and Cooke masters.

Name: Alan Carner
From: Arkansas
Time: 1999-07-27 23:24:52
Comments: Does anyone know a CD that has the song "Burning Memories" by Ray Price. Thanks

Name: beetlefan
Time: 1999-07-28 01:29:54
Comments: Sorry, Marty, When I asked, "Which planet are you on?", I simply wanted a clarification. It wasn't personal, just talking about music we love. We don't always agree, sometimes someone is right, other times, wrong. But we all learn something through this forum. I do know that aparently from the stuff Allen Klein controls, and does little or next to nothing about any of it, he's a real b******. But, just to be fair, what if there really IS a good reason we haven't seen or heard about the Cameo/Parkway stuff? Hmmmm... Anyway, sorry.

Name: Bill Knoble
From: typical, 100° Dallas
Time: 1999-07-28 08:16:22
Comments: TO: Charlie Brown (ya gotta love that name). The easy answer first. You can find a complete (I think) list of 38 "Capitol Collectors Series" at: www.muze.com site. Search Album Titles for: CAPITOL COLLECTORS SERIES. Then, by clicking on the artist's name you can get their discography. By clicking on "Capitol Collectors Series" you'll get (1) Track Listings [in most cases], (2) Album Details [stating if it's available or not] and (3) Notes [usually will find label # here]. As far as the "EMI Legends of Rock n' Roll / Legendary Masters Series, that's not as easy (an album title search for the series' name will not work). Here is an incomplete list of 43 of them. Some I got from an insert card in (I believe) Fats Domino's "They Call Me The Fat Man" box and the others were from my collection. All had the "EMI L.O.R.n.R.S." or "L.M.S." logo on them. To save space I didn't give the COMPLETE title or label #, but, enough info. to positively identify it:JOHNNY BURNETTE - "You're Sixteen..." - 99997JOHNNY BURNETTE - "Johnny Burnette" - 98122 (Holland)CANNED HEAT - "Uncanned..." (2-cds) - 29165VIKKI CARR - "It Must Be Him..." - 93450CHER - "Bang Bang (My Baby Shot Me Down) - 92773CLOVERS - "Love Potion # 9" - 96336EDDIE COCHRAN - "Vol. 1" - 92809CRICKETS - "Liberty Years" - 95845FATS DOMINO - "My Blue Heaven, Vol. 1" - 92808FATS DOMINO-"They Call Me The Fat Man"(4-cds) -96787EXCITERS - "Tell Him..." - 95202FANTASTIC BAGGYS - "Tell 'Em I'm Surfin'..." - 99939FIVE KEYS - "Aladdin Years" - 96056FLEETWOODS - "Come Softly To Me..." - 98830FREDDY & THE DREAMERS-"Definitive Collect..." -96979 GERRY & THE PACEMAKERS-"Definitive Collect..."-96093BOBBY GOLDSBORO - "Honey..." - 96094HOLLIES-"30th Anniversary Collection" (3-cds)-99917ISLEY BROTHERS - "Complete UA Sessions" - 95203JAN & DEAN - "Surf City..." - 92772JAN & DEAN-"Ride The Wild../Little Old Lady.."-80055JAY & THE AMERICANS-"Come A Little Bit Closer"-93448MARV JOHNSON - "You Got What It Takes..." - 98895BILLY J. KRAMER

Name: Jay Johnston
From: London, Ontario
Time: 1999-07-28 09:13:08
Comments: For Charlie Brown. Here's a few more of the EMI Legends series that I pulled from my collection, to add to Bill Knoble's group. Shirley and Lee (92775), Ricky Nelson Vol 1 (92771), Rick Nelson Vol 2 (95219), Bobby Vee (92774), Crickets (95845), Highwaymen (96334), Timi Yuro (80182), Gene McDaniels (99998), Ike & Tina Turner (95846), Ventures (93451), Irma Thomas (97988), Hassles (98828), Bob Lind (89531), Gary Lewis & Playboys (93449), Swinging Blue Jeans (80256), Manfred Mann (96096), Jan & Dean (92772), Hour Glass (96059), Hour Glass-Power of Love (98826), Rivingtons (95204), Del Shannon (95842), Jive Five (99669), Garnet Mimms (80183), two samplers (EMI Legends-24 Greatest Hits-96268),(Rock is dead, but it won't lie down-81128). There was also a blues series out in conjunction with the Legends series, including artists such as Smiley Lewis, Charles Brown, Joe Turner, Lightnin' Hopkins, Amos Milburn, & Albert Collins. I'm sure I missed a few of the series, but that list, in addition to Bill's is all of the ones in my collection.

Name: Jay Johnston
From: London, Ontario
Time: 1999-07-28 09:30:01
Comments: For Charlie Brown. Oops, while putting all those cd's back, I came upon two more that are EMI Legends, not sure though if they were ever part of the original series, or just afterthoughts. They are Patty Duke (29787), and Mel Carter (37810). I'm sure the Carter one, although it says EMI Legends Series on the back,was not part of the original, as it only contains 10 tracks, far fewer than all the rest.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-28 10:09:30
Comments: I noticed in the latest CCM catalog (that arrived one day last week) that they have a few pages dedicated to cut-outs from the (presumably defunct) One Way label. One in particular, THE NASHVILLE TEENS (p. 59), caught my eye, and I was wondering if anyone out there has this CD. Is it any good? I am not concerned whether there's any stereo on it, but rather, does it offer a better sounding "Tobacco Road" than what's on the Time-Life CD?

Name: Bill Knoble
From: Dallas
Time: 1999-07-28 10:30:18
Comments: Charlie, now to continue, before we were so rudely interrupted! [and thanks Jay for your help - you saved me some redo time] Here is the rest of my post (minus what Jay contributed) BILLY J. KRAMER - "Definitive Collection..." (96055) GARY LEWIS & THE PLAYBOYS - "Everybody Loves A Clown // She's Just My Style" (80056) BOBBY VEE - "B. Vee Meets The Crickets" (96054) SLIM WHITMAN - "Una Paloma Blanca" (94315) YARDBIRDS - "Little Games Sessions & More" [2-cds] (98213) Various Artists - "Legends Of Christmas Past..." (99987).Now, WHERE are you going to buy them??? Actually, I've had good luck in two places. (1) The music clubs (BMG is preferred, Columbia House has very few oldies) sometime have a few OOP's lying around. I've found them to be identical (sound quality & liner notes), except that the clubs stamp a different label # and their logo on the track card and disc. (2) The Goldmine "Want List" ads were very successful for me. I've only placed one ad, but, found almost 70% of the ones I listed. You pay more for them through Goldmine (compared to used cd stores), but, you'll find them, ooohhhh, only about 5-6 years sooner!!! You might also want to try (I haven't yet) the "Lost & Found" service at the www.wherehousemusic.com website. Hope this helps and good luck!

Name: roger ledoux
From: rhode island
Time: 1999-07-28 11:25:42
Comments: to alan carner,the only place you're going to find burning memories by ray price is on the 10 cd box set from bear family by ray price.

Name: Dave Sampson
Time: 1999-07-28 12:47:14
Comments: Re: Ray Price. "Burning Memories" appears on the time/life CD "Ray price-Legendary Country Singers" R990-17/A-26870. And yes, it is stereo there. Give Time/Life a call. Hope that helps.

Name: Randy Price
Website:
From: New York
Time: 1999-07-28 15:10:17
Comments: To Steve, re Nashville Teens on One Way: Sound quality is excellent (all mono), and it includes the group's other singles, "Find My Way Back Home" and "Google Eye." Sound quality on "Tobacco Road" on the Time Life CD isn't bad, but it's a bit on the dull side compared to the One Way disc.

Name: Steve Baird
From: Baton Rouge
Time: 1999-07-28 15:13:45
Comments: A few sundries: I found several of the legendary masters series at CDWorld as recently as a few months ago. I had some luck with several from the Capitol Collectors Series there too. I forget where I saw it, but I noticed the Garnet Mimms CD from the series for less than 5 bucks.

Here's your chance to take another crack at Rhino. It appears that they are going to get into the custom CD business "for internet users only." They are calling the program HANDMADE. If you go to the Rhino site, you will see in the bottom right corner that in 4 days (as of today) "A New Breed of Rhino Will Appear." If you click on the right buttons, you can get to a place where you can submit your suggestions. I suggested that they re-do "Pharoaization" in stereo, and then added that I would also like to see anything else they've released in mono that could have been done in stereo as some of their other offerings. You cannot buy a "handmade" CD unless you register, and each title will be limited to 1000 copies.


Name: Bradley Olson
Website: Bradley Olson--A Person With Autism
From: Bemidji, Minnesota
Time: 1999-07-28 18:09:14
Comments: Charlie, The Gordon Lightfoot "United Artists Collection" (EMI 27015) which is a 2 CD set featuring all 4 of his UA studio albums was issued in 1993 as part of the EMI Legends of Rock & Roll Series.

Name: Larry Davis
From: Longview WA
Time: 1999-07-29 13:59:15
Comments: The first of July there was discussion about finding the original hit version of the Animals' "We've Gotta Get Out Of This Place" on CD......CDMO is selling a CD called "The Singles Plus" by the Animals on EMI (20 tracks). Has anyone heard this CD and do you know if it's the same old alternate take?

Name: Randy Price
Website:
From: New York
Time: 1999-07-29 15:45:53
Comments: Larry: so far, every appearance of "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" on an EMI CD has been the British take, NOT the U.S. single version.

Name: Charlie Brown
From: Perrysburg Ohio
Time: 1999-07-29 17:14:10
Comments: A big thank you to all who responded to my last message.To Bill , Jay and Brad... thanks for all the titles of the mostly hard to find and out of print EMI titles. Also I never knew about the muze web site . I found this page very helpful. I captured all the Capitol titles on print. A great help as I will seek out as many of these items as possible to add to my collection. For Brad ...are the songs on the two CD EMI Gordon Lightfoot set original recordings? Charlie

Name: Bradley Olson
Website: Bradley Olson--A Person With Autism
From: Bemidji, Minnesota
Time: 1999-07-29 19:20:48
Comments: Charlie, the Gordon Lightfoot United Artists Collection features all original versions. I bought my copy at Columbia House at a clearance price, but online stores such as Amazon.com, CDNow, etc. have it available for $12.

Name: Bob Olivia
From: Burbank, Ca.
Time: 1999-07-29 19:22:51
Comments: Does anyone know if Earl Bostic's album Musical Pearls is available on CD yet, especially in Stereo, I have the original King Album from 1959. Let me know. Bob. PS bring on more Stereo.

Name: Bradley Olson
Website: Bradley Olson--A Person With Autism
From: Bemidji, Minnesota
Time: 1999-07-29 19:57:44
Comments: Bob, "Musical Pearls" isn't available on CD yet.

Name: Richard Otis
From: Bellingham, Wa.
Time: 1999-07-30 13:24:58
Comments: Re: Taragon release Paul Anka's The Essential RCA Rock And Roll Recordings (1962-1968) of the 22 tracks all but the following are stereo: From Rocking Horse To Rocking Chair / My Baby's Comin' Home / I Can't Help Loving You

Name: Marty Blaise
Website: The Blaise Page
From: Houston, Texas
Time: 1999-07-30 14:35:00
Comments: Does anyone know if the stereo album version differs in any way fron the 45 mono version of Scorpio by Dennis Coffey and the Detroit Guitar Band? Also, anyone have any idea what is being said in all that talk in the background on that track? Was it intentionally put on the recording? Finally, does anyone know what rap song "sampled" part of the drum portion of Scorpio? Anybody have any new early country c&w stereo finds? Thanks.

Name: beetlefan
From: AZ
Time: 1999-07-30 20:53:56
Comments: To Marty Blaise: I never heard the 45 version of Dennis Coffey's "Scorpio" but I always thought it was in stereo. it came out in late 1971 on the Buddah susidiary, Sussex. The stereo version can be found on Rhino's "Soul Hits of the 70's: Didn't It Blow Your Mind, Vol 7". beetlefan




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